Dana White, the king of mind games...

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reckin007
Date: November 15, 2010 at 06:34 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

I absolutely LOVE this guy. Best President in sports, hands down. The reason: He actually loves the sport and is an amazing talker and that's why the UFC is the best promotion in MMA.
The last interview he had regarding Overeem was nothing short of brilliant. He is disputing claims of Overeem's position in the MMA HW top 10 and his argument is so good it's funny how many people are starting to back his sentiment. While Overeem is probably in the top 10 based on talent alone it is hard to ignore White's facts based on the level of opponents that Overeem has been fighting in the past 3 years. I think what Dana is missing though is that the sport is still very young and doesn't really have this almighty list of HW's yet that would actually "deserve" to be on it. I mean let's face it, Cain, Brock, JDS, and Carwin are the UFC's bread and butter heavyweights but I think what White is completely disregarding is that they have a COMBINED 38-4 (9-0, 5-2, 12-1, 12-1) record. While this looks amazing on paper, one can't help but realize that on avg each guy has about 9 fights. Is that REALLY enough to warrant top 10 attention? Basically these guys got to the UFC and practically fought each other or some lower tiered talent in the division (which boosted their records). And while the UFC still has Mir (14-5), and Big Nog (32-6), I think it's pretty obvious Nog seen better days (3-2 in the past 3 years with some odd come from behind victories) and Mir keeps trying to transform himself to the point where he no longer sticks to his submission advantage during the fight.
Now having said that, Overeem and Fedor are a combined 64-13 (9-2, 5-1 respectively in the past 3 years). These stats are unbelievable when you think of how long they have been around for (and I think Overeem has only been a HW since 07). Obviously the talent they have faced lately is not top tier BUT one can't help but think how they would do against guys with measly records like the top UFC top HW's or these TUF HW's (Nelson, Mitrione, etc) when experience can count for sooooo much in this game. Not too mention that they are still relatively young in comparison to Mir, Carwin, Nog, Nelson, or even Lesnar.
I guess my point is I think White is a genius but he's got this top 10 thing all wrong and anyone who agrees with him is completely biased.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Noodles4-LJ4
Date: November 15, 2010 at 06:57 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Gezzz Reckin007 wipe your mouth got a little left on your chain.
I don't think its mind game its more of him being a promoter/business men. I have never heard any business man come out and endorse a other companies product. Coke Cola ain't coming out and saying Pepis is ranked higher then Coke?

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: EAJames
Date: November 15, 2010 at 10:31 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

I love Allistar Overeem but I can't really disagree too strongly with what Dana White said. As much as I'd love to see Overeem in the UFC, Dana White is actually kind of right on this one. You named JDS, Cain, Brock, and Carwin and used their records in comparison to Overeems. While Overeem may have alot more fights, he also has alot more loses. Infact Allistar Overeem holds more loses in his career than those aforementioned four fighters combined.
But more importantly is top notch victories. At Heavyweight Overeem's signature MMA wins are Brett Rogers and Paul Buentello, that's top ten? Cain has defeated the likes of Big Nog, Brock Lesnar, and Kongo and Rothwell who are at Rogers/Buentello levels. Carwin has defeated Frank Mir and Gabe Gonzaga, not to mention stopping his first dozen opponents in the first round. Brock has defeated Randy Couture, Heath Herring (Rogers/Buentello level), Frank Mir, and Shane Carwin. Last but not least JDS has defeated Werdum and Roy Nelson and a bunch of Rogers/Buentello level fighters like Gilbert Ivel, Gabe Gonzaga, and Cro Cop.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: knuckleup101
Date: November 17, 2010 at 03:43 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Well said EA, well said.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reckin007
Date: November 17, 2010 at 09:02 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Well that's what I'm saying, we're ranking these "top" fighters based on what 10 fights. I mean Carwin is a perfect example, he's 12-1 with notable wins against....Mir. You bring up Gonzaga like he's anything other than a stepping stone and I actually might compare him to Brett Rogers in SF. And who the hell is JDS? He's extremely one-dimensional and only has notable wins over Werdum (who isn't a striker), Gonzaga (again...Gonzaga), old Mirko, and young Struve? Why is he considered so high compared to Overeem? Skill wise I feel Overeem would beat JDS more often than not, and might be able to take out Carwin too if he can outstrike him (which just happens to be his specialty).
Let's just wait and see what these guys records are after 15 or 20 or even 30 fights then we can determine how good they really are. Again, the sport is so young it's impossible to just throw UFC only HW's up there because they also haven't fought the likes of Overeem or Fedor. Why does Fedor have anything to prove when he murdered 2 former UFC HW champions and beat Nog/Crocop on their best days as opposed to their current punching bag status? I understand the position on Overeem but you have to remember at HW he has done exactly what he was supposed to do with the people in front of him - dominate them. He's 9-1 since going to HW full time (and holds a win already over the guy who beat him). In fact out of these losses, only 1 of them is to a heavyweight.
What I meant by mind games is White goes out there, talks s--- about Overeem's ranking, but then will sign him a year or so down the road when SF can't afford him or the place folds (see Jake Shields). In the end this little White tirade is ultimately going to get him another top HW and rest assured when he introduces him he will say "one of the top HW's in the world, Alistair Overeem" once he is in the UFC haha. Dana White is brilliant, period.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: EAJames
Date: November 18, 2010 at 09:22 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Reckin007 said:
Well that's what I'm saying, we're ranking these "top" fighters based on what 10 fights. I mean Carwin is a perfect example, he's 12-1 with notable wins against....Mir. You bring up Gonzaga like he's anything other than a stepping stone and I actually might compare him to Brett Rogers in SF. And who the hell is JDS? He's extremely one-dimensional and only has notable wins over Werdum (who isn't a striker), Gonzaga (again...Gonzaga), old Mirko, and young Struve? Why is he considered so high compared to Overeem? Skill wise I feel Overeem would beat JDS more often than not, and might be able to take out Carwin too if he can outstrike him (which just happens to be his specialty).
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I agree with you 100%, Gabe Gonzaga is comparable to Brett Rogers, neither of which belong in the top ten. So Alistair Overeem defeating Brett Rogers doesn't make him a top ten heavyweight. That is the guy's biggest heavyweight win to date, Brett Rogers, and you take issue to Dana White saying he doesn't belong in the top ten rankings? Sounds quite justified to me.
As for JDS your playing the what if game, "what if JDS fought Overeem, I think Overeem would win". You simply can't do that when it comes to rankings. You don't rank on potential or matchups, you can only rank on victories, accomplishments, and performances. If The Boston Celtics win the NBA championship you can't say The Memphis Grizzlies should be ranked higher because they're a bad matchup for The Celtics. You see what I'm saying?
JDS has beat Gonzaga (solid top 15 fighter at the time), Roy Nelson (Solid top 10 or 15 fighter at the time), Werdum (solid top ten or 15 fighter, currently as high as 5), Cro Cop (former top 5 fighter), and a bunch of other solid fighters like Struve and Gilbert Ivel. Not to mention all but Roy Nelson was a finish and most of which were brutal 1st round KOs. Compare that to Overeem's accomplishments. Beat Buentello 3 or 4 years ago and Brett Rogers. You see the difference?
Reckin007 said:
Let's just wait and see what these guys records are after 15 or 20 or even 30 fights then we can determine how good they really are. Again, the sport is so young it's impossible to just throw UFC only HW's up there because they also haven't fought the likes of Overeem or Fedor. Why does Fedor have anything to prove when he murdered 2 former UFC HW champions and beat Nog/Crocop on their best days as opposed to their current punching bag status? I understand the position on Overeem but you have to remember at HW he has done exactly what he was supposed to do with the people in front of him - dominate them. He's 9-1 since going to HW full time (and holds a win already over the guy who beat him). In fact out of these losses, only 1 of them is to a heavyweight.
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You can't wait until a fighter has 20-30 fights, that's simply absurd. It's about accomplishments, victories, and streaks. If Brock Lesnar comes in and in his first 5 fights beats two top ranked legends in Randy Couture or Frank Mir, that guy is the real deal. It would be no different than a guy who came up through the JFC and went 10-4 and than beat Frank Mir and Randy Couture, those wins still have the same value. You were still more talented and defeated those two guys and deserve to climb the rankings.
The problem with waiting 15-20-30 fights is alot of fighters are done by 20-30 fights. Alot of fighters are starting to break into their prime around 15 so you simply can't wait that long. It would be like saying, lets not give Lebron James the MVP, he's only had 7 years in this league, lets wait till he gets 10 before we can judge his status. Makes no sense, right? When GSP first won the title he was only 12-1, same record as Carwin, was there any doubt to his greatness? When BJ Penn won his first title he was only 6-1-1, any doubters there? Times have changed, the days of working your way to the big show by fighting 10 or 15 fights in regional promotions is dead and gone. If your a REALLY talented fighter, you get scooped up by the big guns real quick and thrown to the wolves.
Reckin007 said:
What I meant by mind games is White goes out there, talks s**t about Overeem's ranking, but then will sign him a year or so down the road when SF can't afford him or the place folds (see Jake Shields). In the end this little White tirade is ultimately going to get him another top HW and rest assured when he introduces him he will say "one of the top HW's in the world, Alistair Overeem" once he is in the UFC haha. Dana White is brilliant, period.
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That's just the business side of it. Like Dana White said, he likes Overeem but he doesn't agree with his ranking. If you take an honest look at what he's saying and review the facts, Dana White's postion on that isn't too far off. We all would love to see him fight the top heavyweights in the UFC, that's undeniable, but I think your taking a little too much offense to Dana White's comments which are actually spot on for once.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Ph1sh
Date: November 18, 2010 at 10:08 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

You guys had some great points...I agree with about everything except one thing Reckin, I don't always have to wait 15 or so fights to know how good someone is. And with how fast things change in MMA, the best may not be the best in 5 fights from now, much less 15. Fedor has nothing to prove as far as all time greats go, but he does have something to prove as far as me thinking he is in his prime and the best out there. I have seen him struggle vs fighters who I don't believe are in the top....like Rogers and Werdum as you mentioned, and AA ofcourse. Yes, Fedor did win those....and Brock Lesnar also won the Carwin fight. Besides that one point, I agree with all you both said though AND I love the s--- that Dana says and does. The guy may not do the "right thing" all the time but he is true to himself, that's for damn sure. And people need to realize that MMA just isnt a regular sport and can't be compared to other pro sports. MMA HAS to be promoted to succeed....football, basketball, and all those other sports can support themselves with just the pure game. Ofcourse promoting helps, but it is still a different animal.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reckin007
Date: November 18, 2010 at 12:49 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

It's only absurd to wait 20 fights because of the way the sport is today, everythings so fast so we have to rank them as soon as possible to have some type of totem pole/contender mapping. When these guys actually have that much under their belt, only then will we know how good they are/were. None of the big 4 UFC HW fighters have really faced any adversity except for Lesnar (illness, Carwin fight), and we have NO idea how good they really are until someone new comes in with a strong skill set. Essentially right now these top UFC HW's have only faced eachother or subpar talent - not really a great way to rank. I can already give you two examples of "next big things" in the UFC, Pat Barry/Duffee, who many people thought were going to tear the division apart based on a few fights...didn't happen. If you look at pretty much every other divisional top 10 there is way more experience which makes it a lot easier to say, oh this guy should be on it, this guy shouldn't, blah blah blah. It's just not like that in the HW division. Even Shogun already has 20+ fights and he's only 29! These guys in the HW division are just simply ranked for the sake of ranking but there isn't much substance to it.
For arguments sake, let's say people finally realize that JDS is not that good and just start taking him down. If he is unable to do anything with that (takedown def, subs), how the f--- is he a top 10 HW? I mean there is a reason Tito Ortiz isn't a top fighter, he can't take anybody down anymore which was his only strength! Has JDS fought anyone yet willing to try that?...nope not really. Now I'm not saying if he lost easily to Cain from takedowns or striking that he's automatically overrated but if someone starts using that same gameplan and JDS can't get away from it....then we know he isn't really that good.
Now in no way do I like SF HW's, or jonesing for Overeem, but I think it's VERY fair to say he would come in and take out a one-dimensional fighter like JDS since he's obviously beaten better strikers than JDS already in K-1 (or at least one would hope). JDS strength - only striking...Overeem's strength - better striking and better at everything else.
"Mind games" is just a term I'm using but that's what White uses to manipulate this game. OF COURSE it's a BUSINESS STRATEGY, but it's still mind games nonetheless. Essentially he uses the press/twitter to shape and mold things the way HE wants them to go...that's a strategy but there's no contract/obligation to do so, so I called it mind games. Seems rational. You're on crack cocaine if you think he doesn't want Overeem TODAY. He's simply trying to drop his stock a bit with his comments to 1. Knock SF HW division rankings, and 2. Make Alistair think he has to join the UFC to be a true top 10 HW.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Ph1sh
Date: November 18, 2010 at 03:14 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Duffee still has a ton of promise if he takes it seriously, but who did you see saying Barry was the next big thing? He is fun to watch, but it has been a pretty common opinion that he should not even be in the HW division.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reckin007
Date: November 18, 2010 at 07:47 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Of course it was a good matchup on short notice, but there is a reason the UFC gave him the chance against Mirko in only his 7th fight. You wouldn't throw an up and comer to the wolves if you thought he couldn't handle it...

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: GuidaClayAllDay
Date: November 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

I can't agree more with what EAJames is saying. Reckin I think you make some good points too, but until Overeem faces some fighters that are revered by many as the top HW's in the world, I don't think you can rag on JDS's "potential lack of ground game" and use that as an argument why Overeem should be ranked higher.
I think Reckin touches on something very relevant to this argument with Dana's "MindGames". Overeem is kinda screwed in this top 10 argument. Dana has the majority of the best HW's in our minds, and Strikeforce has struggled to put on HW fights, finally setting up Overeem VS Bigfoot Silva. Dana can be very manipulative with the HW's the UFC is in possession of, the UFC brand, and Overeem's participation in K-1/freak show esque fights. It's really hurting Strikeforce (and in the long run, Overeem's reputation) that they can't get Barnett and Fedor to start mixing it up.
I think it all comes back to what EAJames said: The UFC HW's have wins over fighters who were highly regarded opponents at the time....these are stats in the record books and not predictions.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reckin007
Date: November 19, 2010 at 10:09 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

GuidaClayAllDay said:
I think it all comes back to what EAJames said: The UFC HW's have wins over fighters who were highly regarded opponents at the time....these are stats in the record books and not predictions.
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It's absolutely a good point, but I think it underminds MMA as a whole if you don't consider/believe/remotely think that perhaps Overeem is also just as good but doesn't have the competition in front of him. I mean, it's not like he's looked bad in his HW fights he's been pretty dominating actually. Let's be honest here, it wasn't that long ago that Cain got clocked a few times by Kongo, Carwins eyes rolled around against Gonzaga, Lesnar was almost dead against Carwin (and went bye bye against Cain), so all do have weaknesses that an experienced fighter like Alistair could pick up on. And while there isn't really anything negative you could say about JDS in his fights, I will say that we just haven't seen him on the ground yet. Only then do I think the hype will be for real.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: EAJames
Date: November 19, 2010 at 10:19 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Reckin007 said:
It's absolutely a good point, but I think it underminds MMA as a whole if you don't consider/believe/remotely think that perhaps Overeem is also just as good but doesn't have the competition in front of him. I mean, it's not like he's looked bad in his HW fights he's been pretty dominating actually. Let's be honest here, it wasn't that long ago that Cain got clocked a few times by Kongo, Carwins eyes rolled around against Gonzaga, Lesnar was almost dead against Carwin (and went bye bye against Cain), so all do have weaknesses that an experienced fighter like Alistair could pick up on. And while there isn't really anything negative you could say about JDS in his fights, I will say that we just haven't seen him on the ground yet. Only then do I think the hype will be for real.
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1. Alistar has not fought the best competition over the last few years as a heavyweight, he has chosen to take great fights in K-1, but has avoided any serious threats in MMA until a few months ago when he faced Rogers. There is plenty of fighters out there that would shoot Overeem up the rankings (Fedor, Werdum, Big Foot, AA, Sylvia, Barnett, etc). He could have chosen to fight any of these guys but BY HIS CHOICE he decided to stay in Japan and do mostly K-1. It wasn't a lack of competition, it was his unwillingness to compete in MMA against the top guys available.
2. You can't fault JDS for not being on the ground yet. He fought Werdum, where do you think he wanted that fight? He took on Roy Nelson and Gonzaga, both of them attempted to get the fight to the ground and we're shut down. We fault a guy for being successful at keeping a fight where he's most dominate? That's seems kind of silly, no? Chuck Liddell made a CAREER off of that very same style.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reckin007
Date: November 19, 2010 at 10:39 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

EAJames said:
Reckin007 said:
It's absolutely a good point, but I think it underminds MMA as a whole if you don't consider/believe/remotely think that perhaps Overeem is also just as good but doesn't have the competition in front of him. I mean, it's not like he's looked bad in his HW fights he's been pretty dominating actually. Let's be honest here, it wasn't that long ago that Cain got clocked a few times by Kongo, Carwins eyes rolled around against Gonzaga, Lesnar was almost dead against Carwin (and went bye bye against Cain), so all do have weaknesses that an experienced fighter like Alistair could pick up on. And while there isn't really anything negative you could say about JDS in his fights, I will say that we just haven't seen him on the ground yet. Only then do I think the hype will be for real.
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1. Alistar has not fought the best competition over the last few years as a heavyweight, he has chosen to take great fights in K-1, but has avoided any serious threats in MMA until a few months ago when he faced Rogers. There is plenty of fighters out there that would shoot Overeem up the rankings (Fedor, Werdum, Big Foot, AA, Sylvia, Barnett, etc). He could have chosen to fight any of these guys but BY HIS CHOICE he decided to stay in Japan and do mostly K-1. It wasn't a lack of competition, it was his unwillingness to compete in MMA against the top guys available.
2. You can't fault JDS for not being on the ground yet. He fought Werdum, where do you think he wanted that fight? He took on Roy Nelson and Gonzaga, both of them attempted to get the fight to the ground and we're shut down. We fault a guy for being successful at keeping a fight where he's most dominate? That's seems kind of silly, no? Chuck Liddell made a CAREER off of that very same style.
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K I will go along with number 1, and hopefully in the future he will fight some of those guys, but #2 I have to disagree. Liddell made a career yes, but let's not pretend that once MMA got more well-rounded fighters, Liddell's career plummeted (and of course age was a factor). Guys who are 1 dimensional lose a lot more now than someone who is versatile. My point is IF he starts to have trouble on the ground and loses a bunch in a row I don't see him as being in the top ten for long. Once he fights Cain I think we will know a whole lot more about him. But even a JDS/Overeem fight standing the whole time I think Overeem would take it.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: EAJames
Date: November 19, 2010 at 10:53 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Reckin007 said:
K I will go along with number 1, and hopefully in the future he will fight some of those guys, but #2 I have to disagree. Liddell made a career yes, but let's not pretend that once MMA got more well-rounded fighters, Liddell's career plummeted (and of course age was a factor). Guys who are 1 dimensional lose a lot more now than someone who is versatile. My point is IF he starts to have trouble on the ground and loses a bunch in a row I don't see him as being in the top ten for long. Once he fights Cain I think we will know a whole lot more about him. But even a JDS/Overeem fight standing the whole time I think Overeem would take it.
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Liddell made a career of making people stand with him who weren't as good at striking as him. JDS does the SAME EXACT THING. Liddell crumbled when he got older, more lazy, and started fighting better strikers. His game plan remained the same, he just was getting beat at his own bread and butter.
Overeem vs JDS would be very interesting, and I think you would have to favor Overeem in THAT MATCHUP. But in terms on accomplishments and streaks and postioning amongst the heavy weight division, at this moment in time JDS has to be ranked SEVERAL spots ahead. Don't sleep on JDS's ground, he trains with one of the best camps in the world, under world class black belts, and has shown a tremendous ability to avoid takedown attempts and bounce back to his feet effortlessly.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reckin007
Date: November 20, 2010 at 01:48 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/dana-white-the-king-of-mind-games.32391/

Yes true, hard to say bad things about a ground game we haven't seen, but until you see it, it's still a question mark and possible hole in his game where Overeem has showed that the fight can go anywhere and he'd be comfortable.
I really think we'll just go back and forth on this one, but I will say that once Cain/JDS go and Overeem gets one of the top SF guys, I think we'll have a clearer picture on where these guys should be ranked.