DOMA is Unconstitutional

Originally posted by: redd1
Date: June 26, 2013 at 09:32 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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CopperHeart said:
Check out this link. Sorry. It's way too much info to post here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
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To be fair in most of those cases Christians were the minority, maybe that is why they are so voracious about defending their "rights" while crushing everyone else.
 
Originally posted by: CopperHeart
Date: June 26, 2013 at 09:44 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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redd1 said:
There is so much wrong with this statement I can't even imagine where to start.
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Let me see if I can address it:
troubleshooting said:
↑
I don't feel the same way you do about one group having a level of control over another. Thousands of abortions happen every day. Homosexuality is being glorified and quickly becoming the norm. Christians are looked at as being dumb, close minded bigots, and second class citizens.
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Control: The U.S. is a representative democracy. So (in theory) voting citizens guide legislation (let's pretend for a second that political contributions and corruption are not factors). That's why some states have different laws regarding speed limits, abortion, g@y marriage etc.
Abortion: It's around 3,000 per day in the U.S., according to published statistics. I personally think zero per day would be a great achievement, but I don't cram my personal choices down other people's throats.
Homosexuality being glorified and becoming the norm: I'm not sure about glorification, but it helps that people come to terms with the fact that it's always existed, and that it does not injure society if two adults who love each other are able to express it. Instead, I have a big problem with someone like Jerry Lee Lewis (great performer, btw) who married his female first cousin when she was 13.
Christians are looked as dumb etc.: I feel the close-minded one are looked as dumb because they tend to try to impose their beliefs on others. I was raised in Christianity. Years ago I told my brother and (now late) lawyer, who are both born-again Christians, that I started going to church again for the purpose of finding peace after my mother's death and also teach my daughter about religion, charity and ethics. They were so happy for me. Then I told them it was a Catholic church. They acted like I had just murdered a litter of puppies. So intolerant. So much of Jesus of Nazareth's golden rule:
Matthew 7:12
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Luke 6:31
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
 
Originally posted by: grapplethis
Date: June 26, 2013 at 09:54 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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Flound said:
You might not believe this but I was serious. Maybe you haven't met anyone else you think is better than you - doesn't mean I haven't.
Really, there are a number of people here I think are better people than me, tinok. Copper, for one. Waarheid. PCT is without a doubt a better person. Keeper is, but he's young enough I might lure him to the dark side.
I could go on for a while, but making a list isn't the point. Basically, there's lots of people on here that are better people than me.
Except for Seawall.
Granted, he and I exist in two different ruts. But it's in the same gutter.
And none of that means I don't enjoy what I do or revel in it. I don't think I'd be doing it otherwise. But that doesn't preclude giving someone a compliment for being gracious.
Besides, it makes for a better contrast.
(Was that enough words?)
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didn't doubt you were being sincere, just saying you clearly revel in arguing with people you disagree with, and you revel in being snarky in doing so (like you said, you wouldn't do it that way if you didn't enjoy it). i get it. i revel in snark myself.
ps
"better" is a qualitative thing. we're on a message board. we're all pretty shitty. no one's better than anyone else. Sapper isn't better than you for being a tidbit more civil about this discussion (i try to not get too heavily involved in this particular discussion because its too close to the heart and i'd make a ton of what you called "vacation" statements if i got too into it). he's just different. we're all great...well rather, we're all kind of shitty. again, it's a message board.
 
Originally posted by: LighthouseKeeper
Date: June 26, 2013 at 10:17 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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troubleshooting said:
The theory of evolution is being taught in schools. Not all of them but it is being taught.
And it comes with far more serious consequences for society than teaching that we were in fact created in the image of God.
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I will let others deal with the other aspects of your argument, because I can't claim much knowledge there. But in this topic, I can.
*cracks knuckles*
What are the "serious consequences" that arise from teaching children the truth, as we best understand it, about the natural world?
 
Originally posted by: CopperHeart
Date: June 26, 2013 at 10:25 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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LighthouseKeeper said:
I will let others deal with the other aspects of your argument, because I can't claim much knowledge there. But in this topic, I can.
*cracks knuckles*
What are the "serious consequences" that arise from teaching children the truth, as we best understand it, about the natural world?
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For me, the serious consequence is that I've often though of creating a race of superhuman soldiers by infusing them with chimpanzee DNA for highly powerful muscles, bones, tendons and ligaments.
 
Originally posted by: LighthouseKeeper
Date: June 26, 2013 at 10:29 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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CopperHeart said:
For me, the serious consequence is that I've often though of creating a race of superhuman soldiers by infusing them with chimpanzee DNA for highly powerful muscles, bones, tendons and ligaments.
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How is that related to the theory of evolution (please... please take the bait).
 
Originally posted by: Sapper
Date: June 26, 2013 at 10:35 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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CopperHeart said:
For me, the serious consequence is that I've often though of creating a race of superhuman soldiers by infusing them with chimpanzee DNA for highly powerful muscles, bones, tendons and ligaments.
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Just got done eating home made fried chicken....
But anyway didn't they already do this in Brazil? Dr. Mengele comes to mind.
 
Originally posted by: Sapper
Date: June 26, 2013 at 10:47 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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troubleshooting said:
Thank you for being able to have a civil, adult conversation without feeling the need to make ridiculous insults.
I understand why you believe the things you stated are not false, but if you read my response again I think it's clear that most of those things (slavery, equal rights, etc..) have no Biblical precept whatsoever. Do you really believe the KKK's actions have been backed up by Biblical ideology? Does anything I posted in my response warrant the accusation of holding America back?
Missions are for spreading the gospel to areas where it has not been heard(parts of Africa, China, etc..). You are right, we are to spread the Word, but the Bible states that only the Holy Spirit can change someone's heart. There is absolutely nothing I could say to someone to make them embrace it.
I don't feel the same way you do about one group having a level of control over another. Thousands of abortions happen every day. Homosexuality is being glorified and quickly becoming the norm. Christians are looked at as being dumb, close minded bigots, and second class citizens. Where is all this control?
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You seem to be making this about you, and not Christianity. You may feel one way, or think one way, but facts and history state other wise. Like it or not the KKK is a religious org, being a member of the church is a requirement for joining.
Like it or not the bible does have slavery in it, and was used as a major tool in not ending slavery in America, and also not giving minorities equals rights. These are facts... Not ideas, thoughts or opinions, facts.
There are a lot of closed minded bigots in the world, there are also a lot of Christians. Seems likely there would be a lot of both. The problem is that the most vocal ones usually tend to be the ones who are closed minded bigots, on both sides of this aisle.
No to homosexuality..... Who cares if its glorified. Are they not human? Being black has been glorified for the last 20 years or so. Is that bad too? Maybe its because I grew up with gay relatives, but being gay does not threaten anyone, or anything. Or is God going to bring fire down from the sky again?
 
Originally posted by: CopperHeart
Date: June 26, 2013 at 10:49 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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LighthouseKeeper said:
How is that related to the theory of evolution (please... please take the bait).
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Since chimps are genetically our nearest relatives (on account of having evolved from a common ancestor), and the human genome has already been sequenced, then I expect it wouldn't be much of a leap to identify the exact components in the chimpanzee genome that define their physical superiority to us.
 
Originally posted by: CopperHeart
Date: June 26, 2013 at 10:49 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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Sapper said:
Just got done eating home made fried chicken....
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Yum!!!
 
Originally posted by: JW1978
Date: June 27, 2013 at 12:49 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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CopperHeart said:
I think since most arguments against g@y marriage are religious, that's ultimately a losing battle, because of the separation of Church and State in America.
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Lots also a clear violation of the Equal Protection Clause. The bottom line is that this is a literal CIVIL rights issue in that the pertinent question is, do same-sex couples have the same rights under civil law as heterosexual couples, and under the Equal Protection clause, I don't see a valid argument against it.
 
Originally posted by: JW1978
Date: June 27, 2013 at 01:32 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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troubleshooting said:
Thank you for being able to have a civil, adult conversation without feeling the need to make ridiculous insults.
I understand why you believe the things you stated are not false, but if you read my response again I think it's clear that most of those things (slavery, equal rights, etc..) have no Biblical precept whatsoever. Do you really believe the KKK's actions have been backed up by Biblical ideology? Does anything I posted in my response warrant the accusation of holding America back?
Missions are for spreading the gospel to areas where it has not been heard(parts of Africa, China, etc..). You are right, we are to spread the Word, but the Bible states that only the Holy Spirit can change someone's heart. There is absolutely nothing I could say to someone to make them embrace it.
I don't feel the same way you do about one group having a level of control over another. Thousands of abortions happen every day. Homosexuality is being glorified and quickly becoming the norm. Christians are looked at as being dumb, close minded bigots, and second class citizens. Where is all this control?
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If the shoe fits...
Far too many bigots use their supposed religion as a crutch for hate, while ignoring the Seven Mortal Sins and the Golden Rule as they apply to themselves. And also, anyone of true faiths does not need state affirmation of said faith. Those true of faith act within accord of their faith and don't worry about whether they're receiving proverbial pats on the back affirming their faith.
If you don't believe in same-sex marriage, don't do it. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. But don't try to sell me some bill of goods that you believe in "freedom" while exploiting your "religion" to limit the legal rights of those who do not follow your religious beliefs. It's this blatant and shameless hypocrisy that makes it hard for reasonable people to buy into the platitudes you put forth.
I don't care about your religion just like I don't care who my neighbor is f*cking. But I do believe that all involved deserve equal protection under the law.
And so long as a presidential candidate has to act as if they are Christian so they can pander to those seeking affirmation of their own faith, you're going to have a tough time selling me the white, male, Christian victim card.
 
Originally posted by: Flound
Date: June 27, 2013 at 05:26 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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Sapper said:
You seem to be making this about you, and not Christianity. You may feel one way, or think one way, but facts and history state other wise. Like it or not the KKK is a religious org, being a member of the church is a requirement for joining.
Like it or not the bible does have slavery in it, and was used as a major tool in not ending slavery in America, and also not giving minorities equals rights. These are facts... Not ideas, thoughts or opinions, facts.
There are a lot of closed minded bigots in the world, there are also a lot of Christians. Seems likely there would be a lot of both. The problem is that the most vocal ones usually tend to be the ones who are closed minded bigots, on both sides of this aisle.
No to homosexuality..... Who cares if its glorified. Are they not human? Being black has been glorified for the last 20 years or so. Is that bad too? Maybe its because I grew up with gay relatives, but being gay does not threaten anyone, or anything. Or is God going to bring fire down from the sky again?
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It's the term he uses that really illustrates the bias and insecurity. Gay people are being glorified? Simply because they ask to be accepted for who they are and to receive the same benefits s everyone else.
That's not glorification, that's f---ing emancipation from religious intolerance.
Nothing worse that an insecure Christian whining that he can't discriminate against others....waaaaah.
 
Originally posted by: Flound
Date: June 27, 2013 at 06:08 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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grapplethis said:
didn't doubt you were being sincere, just saying you clearly revel in arguing with people you disagree with, and you revel in being snarky in doing so (like you said, you wouldn't do it that way if you didn't enjoy it). i get it. i revel in snark myself.
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I think you misunderstand my meaning. I didn't think you didn't think I was serious - I'm saying all I was doing was complimenting Sap. I wasn't trying to imply that I didn't enjoy what I do.
"better" is a qualitative thing. we're on a message board. we're all pretty shitty. no one's better than anyone else. Sapper isn't better than you for being a tidbit more civil about this discussion (i try to not get too heavily involved in this particular discussion because its too close to the heart and i'd make a ton of what you called "vacation" statements if i got too into it). he's just different. we're all great...well rather, we're all kind of shitty. again, it's a message board.
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Of course, better is a qualitative thing. That's why I chose it. Because I don't think we're all equally shitty, nor do I think people have varying degrees of shittiness in differing areas and the total sum is somewhat equitable. Some of us are better than others.
Sapper is more gracious than I am - even if his thoughts echo mine, he's at least willing to be thoughtful and considerate. I didn't even pause to consider going that route. In fact, as close as I got to it was peeling back from some warning worthy remarks from the vantage point of not affecting my posting status. A wholly selfish motivation.
 
Originally posted by: Flound
Date: June 27, 2013 at 06:54 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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troubleshooting said:
Does anything I posted in my response warrant the accusation of holding America back?
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Nope, but then again you consistently ignore any comment that points out the problems with intolerance towards others found in a portion of the religious.
I don't feel the same way you do about one group having a level of control over another.....Where is all this control?
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(facepalm) It's almost like DOMA didn't exist for this guy.
 
Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: June 27, 2013 at 09:34 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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troubleshooting said:
I don't feel the same way you do about one group having a level of control over another. Thousands of abortions happen every day. Homosexuality is being glorified and quickly becoming the norm. Christians are looked at as being dumb, close minded bigots, and second class citizens. Where is all this control?
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1) While there are thousands of abortions, there are also millions of dollars being spent on anti-abortion lobbying groups and propaganda trying to convince individuals not to have abortions. That is fair, no? Both sides are getting their opportunity to convince the population why they are right and the other is wrong.
2) Regarding homosexuality, there is a huge difference between tolerance and glorification. All gays are asking for are equal rights that are federally granted to hetrerosexuals. They don't even want their 40 acres and a mule, they just want the ability to buy land like anyone else.
3) You really believe that Christians are looked at as being dumb close minded bigots and second class citizens? Based on what? They have every right to speak their mind, just as every non-Christian has their right to tell them to STFU and that they are wrong. It's called freedom of speech. No ones rights are being restricted and there is no ushering of any individual into the second class going on in regards to Christians.
 
Originally posted by: Flound
Date: June 27, 2013 at 09:40 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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osubuckeye4 said:
1) While there are thousands of abortions, there are also millions of dollars being spent on anti-abortion lobbying groups and propaganda trying to convince individuals not to have abortions. That is fair, no? Both sides are getting their opportunity to convince the population why they are right and the other is wrong.
2) Regarding homosexuality, there is a huge difference between tolerance and glorification. All gays are asking for are equal rights that are federally granted to hetrerosexuals. They don't even want their 40 acres and a mule, they just want the ability to buy land like anyone else.
3) You really believe that Christians are looked at as being dumb close minded bigots and second class citizens? Based on what? They have every right to speak their mind, just as every non-Christian has their right to tell them to STFU and that they are wrong. It's called freedom of speech. No ones rights are being restricted and there is no ushering of any individual into the second class going on in regards to Christians.
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Of course Christians aren't being persecuted, nor are any of the clowns painting themselves as defenders are actually defending it from anything. The truth of it is that they're defending its privilege.
 
Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: June 27, 2013 at 09:53 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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Flound said:
Of course Christians aren't being persecuted, nor are any of the clowns painting themselves as defenders are actually defending it from anything.
The truth of it is that they're defending its privilege
.
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No doubt.
 
Originally posted by: Flound
Date: June 27, 2013 at 10:34 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/doma-is-unconstitutional.55883/
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grapplethis said:
Flound said:
Really, there are a number of people here I think are better people than me,
tinok
.
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You never even said anything about this sentence, grap. I'm hurt.
 
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