Herb Dean stoppages

Nastycrow

Nastycrow

Mr. BlobTitz
Staff member
Originally posted by: Wana Dite
Date: July 28, 2015 at 01:16 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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What's up with Herb here lately? I've always thought of him as 1 of the better refs ufc has (not saying much). Mendes gets rocked and is defending with 2 seconds on the clock.....stopped. Gomi is out cold with head bouncing off the canvas and joe has to stop the fight himself?
 
Originally posted by: kirza82
Date: July 28, 2015 at 01:39 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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A little inconsistent as of late. Being a ref in MMA is a tough job believe it or not, human error is possible. The Mendes stoppage was a little early, and Gomi was a little late but I am confident in herb for the most part and don't believe he has lost his professional touch.
 
Originally posted by: 67goat
Date: July 28, 2015 at 01:49 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Turtling up face down is not defending, especially after getting knocked down. It's one thing when a fighter is on his back and flips over to cover up (still reflects giving up), but going face down after a knockdown when the red can no longer see the eyes and not moving at all doesn't leave the ref with any good options. Heck, it's not even the same as the Faber/Barao stoppage where Faber covered up after a failed take down (as Faber was not rocked and knocked down first). You must be active after getting knocked down or the fight will be stopped. Covering and not moving is the opposite of active, it is passive.
The time on the clock argument is a stupid argument only made by those that don't understand combat sports. The clock should NEVER play into a ref's decisions unless the bell has already rung. A stoppage 2 seconds in is a stoppage with 2 seconds left. Every time.
Watch the video, Gomi is not out cold. He never goes fully limp and is continuing to move his head and his arms in an attempt to dodge and defend. Is he being effective, no. Had he mentally given up by then, I think so. Would the fight ended with the same result if it continued, almost certainly. However, Joe jumped the gun on getting up. Gomi was not out and had not submitted. Herb was giving Gomi every chance because he was being active.
Both stoppages are very consistent with Herb's philosophy on reffing.
 
Originally posted by: Mike Porch MMA
Date: July 28, 2015 at 01:57 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Herb is the best & still is the best. hasnt lost a beat, nor is he in a stoppage rut.
There was nothing wrong with the Mendes stoppage & I'm tired of explaining why. If numerous professional fighters (that don't even like McGregor) are saying there was nothing wrong with the stoppage (including Chad himself), then why are some fans so adamant that Herb screwed up?
 
Originally posted by: NicoSuave
Date: July 28, 2015 at 02:04 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Its weird with Herb. Sometimes, he'll work a prelim, and either stop a fight considerably too early/late, then work a main card fight and do the exact opposite. That makes me wonder if someone is talking to him backstage in between fights, saying "Herb, you didn't give that guy enough of a chance to work." OR "Herb, you let that guy take way too much damage," which is influencing how he refs as the card goes on.
That said, being a ref is still a tough job, and human error is very much present in that job. So, I can't really blame Herb, as I feel he's still trying to do his best.
 
Originally posted by: Spud
Date: July 28, 2015 at 02:44 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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I don't see an issue with the Mendes stoppage, he was dropped & doing nothing to properly defend himself.
Herb has had some performances that are below par for him, I thought the Dillashaw-Barao stoppage was a bit late, but no ref is going to be perfect all the time. Overall, I still think he's one of the best refs in MMA, if not the very best.
 
Originally posted by: C-Me-No-More
Date: July 28, 2015 at 03:40 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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he had an off night he's only human at the end we all make mistakes especially in Lauzon/Gomi fight,
the Mendes stoppage was on par, yeah the TJ/Barao fight did go on abit longer than needed but i'd still rather him being a ref than Yves Lavigne standing Tate/Eye up even though Tate was actually doing damage from the bottom, its a thankless job
 
Originally posted by: Wana Dite
Date: July 28, 2015 at 04:16 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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I agree that the clock should have no bearing on the fight being stopped of not, but that's not the way it has worked in the past. I've seen numerous fights where the ref didn't stop it because the bell was ab to ring. How many times have we seen a fighter all but have to be helped to their corner after the bell because they were hurt and the ref waited for the buzzer.
 
Originally posted by: 67goat
Date: July 28, 2015 at 04:22 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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NicoSuave said:
Its weird with Herb. Sometimes, he'll work a prelim, and either stop a fight considerably too early/late, then work a main card fight and do the exact opposite. That makes me wonder if someone is talking to him backstage in between fights, saying "Herb, you didn't give that guy enough of a chance to work." OR "Herb, you let that guy take way too much damage," which is influencing how he refs as the card goes on.
That said, being a ref is still a tough job, and human error is very much present in that job. So, I can't really blame Herb, as I feel he's still trying to do his best.
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Herb is less likely to be familiar with how well a prelim fighter recovers as he is less likely to have riffed one of their fights. When he doesn't know you, he errs on the side of caution. If he has seen you fight and knows you can bounce back, he gives a little more leeway (at least when it comes to standing KOs or TKOs from strikes without a leading knockdown). He has explained this multiple times.
The Barao fight could have been stopped earlier, but Barao was still standing and throwing strikes (even landed a couple glancing ineffective strikes). Herb tries to give every opportunity in a situation like that. Barao was not out on his feet, simply outclassed and unable to land. Gomi wasn't out at all. Neither stoppage was really late.
 
Originally posted by: tboned
Date: July 28, 2015 at 04:27 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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67goat said:
Herb is less likely to be familiar with how well a prelim fighter recovers as he is less likely to have riffed one of their fights. When he doesn't know you, he errs on the side of caution. If he has seen you fight and knows you can bounce back, he gives a little more leeway (at least when it comes to standing KOs or TKOs from strikes without a leading knockdown). He has explained this multiple times.
The Barao fight could have been stopped earlier, but Barao was still standing and throwing strikes (even landed a couple glancing ineffective strikes). Herb tries to give every opportunity in a situation like that. Barao was not out on his feet, simply outclassed and unable to land. Gomi wasn't out at all. Neither stoppage was really late.
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I thought they were both stopped at the right time, enough to prove the winner of the fight, but stopped soon enough so that the fighter doesn't take additional unnecessary damage.
 
Originally posted by: mmablaster
Date: July 28, 2015 at 04:44 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Mike Porch MMA said:
Herb is the best & still is the best. hasnt lost a beat, nor is he in a stoppage rut.
There was nothing wrong with the Mendes stoppage & I'm tired of explaining why. If numerous professional fighters (that don't even like McGregor) are saying there was nothing wrong with the stoppage (including Chad himself), then why are some fans so adamant that Herb screwed up?
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The Mendes stoppage was completely legit. It is Mendes' duty not to get rocked. If you are not defending yourself, it doesn't matter if there are 4 minutes on the clock or 2 seconds. Heck, it could have been stopped after the bell.
Barao stoppage was legit, he wasn't coming back.
I didn't like the Gomi call, but that is a little harder to make.
 
Originally posted by: Baron Anthès
Date: July 28, 2015 at 05:05 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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67goat said:
Turtling up face down is not defending, especially after getting knocked down. It's one thing when a fighter is on his back and flips over to cover up (still reflects giving up), but going face down after a knockdown when the red can no longer see the eyes and not moving at all doesn't leave the ref with any good options. Heck, it's not even the same as the Faber/Barao stoppage where Faber covered up after a failed take down (as Faber was not rocked and knocked down first). You must be active after getting knocked down or the fight will be stopped. Covering and not moving is the opposite of active, it is passive.
The time on the clock argument is a stupid argument only made by those that don't understand combat sports. The clock should NEVER play into a ref's decisions unless the bell has already rung. A stoppage 2 seconds in is a stoppage with 2 seconds left. Every time.
Watch the video, Gomi is not out cold. He never goes fully limp and is continuing to move his head and his arms in an attempt to dodge and defend. Is he being effective, no. Had he mentally given up by then, I think so. Would the fight ended with the same result if it continued, almost certainly. However, Joe jumped the gun on getting up. Gomi was not out and had not submitted. Herb was giving Gomi every chance because he was being active.
Both stoppages are very consistent with Herb's philosophy on reffing.
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How many of Conor's follow up punches landed cleanly without touching the defense that Mendes threw up? if you think Mendes looked worse off than Gomi, I don't know what to tell you. You're wrong though.
EDIT: I don't think the Mendes stoppage was illegitimate. You can't turtle and hope the ref doesn't stop the fight. But it's not like Gomi was doing okay and Mendes wasn't and it's not like Herb's reffing was consistent.
 
Originally posted by: Baron Anthès
Date: July 28, 2015 at 05:07 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Also, why are we talking about the Gomi stoppage when the truly baffling one was the beating Dillashaw put on Barao. I mean, I counted over 20 head shots in a row.
 
Originally posted by: Baron Anthès
Date: July 28, 2015 at 05:08 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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67goat said:
Herb is less likely to be familiar with how well a prelim fighter recovers as he is less likely to have riffed one of their fights. When he doesn't know you, he errs on the side of caution. If he has seen you fight and knows you can bounce back, he gives a little more leeway (at least when it comes to standing KOs or TKOs from strikes without a leading knockdown). He has explained this multiple times.
The Barao fight could have been stopped earlier, but Barao was still standing and throwing strikes (even landed a couple glancing ineffective strikes). Herb tries to give every opportunity in a situation like that. Barao was not out on his feet, simply outclassed and unable to land. Gomi wasn't out at all. Neither stoppage was really late.
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Barao was kept from falling over by the fence at least twice. The fight should have been stopped almost 6 punches earlier.
 
Originally posted by: Wana Dite
Date: July 28, 2015 at 05:17 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Baron Anthès said:
Also, why are we talking about the Gomi stoppage when the truly baffling one was the beating Dillashaw put on Barao. I mean, I counted over 20 head shots in a row.
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I figured I'd hear enough just putting these 2 in the mix without Barao.
I've watched the Gomi finish back several times. If you watch his arm, it goes freakin limp and stays limp. That's when joe looks at his face and gets up. Herb missed that 1.
The Mendes stop was a little early IMO going by how they've done it in the past, but I can see the arguement from tr other side as well.
 
Originally posted by: 67goat
Date: July 28, 2015 at 08:51 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Wana Dite said:
I agree that the clock should have no bearing on the fight being stopped of not, but that's not the way it has worked in the past. I've seen numerous fights where the ref didn't stop it because the bell was ab to ring. How many times have we seen a fighter all but have to be helped to their corner after the bell because they were hurt and the ref waited for the buzzer.
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You're attempting to say that correlation equals causation. Just because a ref looked ready to jump in and didn't before the bell rang does not mean they were waiting for the bell.
Furthermore, even if a ref had done so in the past does not mean that other refs should follow suit. Continuing a wrong behavior just because it used to be done is just stupid.
 
Originally posted by: Fight Magnet
Date: July 28, 2015 at 09:02 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Oddly enough UFC on Fox pulled the Lauzon vs Gomi Highlight vid
I was going to show the exact point at which Gomi loses consciousness.
 
Originally posted by: Wana Dite
Date: July 28, 2015 at 10:41 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/herb-dean-stoppages.66971/
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Fight Genome said:
Oddly enough UFC on Fox pulled the Lauzon vs Gomi Highlight vid
I was going to show the exact point at which Gomi loses consciousness.
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Interesting.
 
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