Holzer Reich's Nazi-esque shirts make way to UFC

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: SheerTerror
Date: December 07, 2009 at 07:05 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

Holzer Reich's Nazi-esque shirts make way to UFC and Spike TV
By Maggie Hendricks
If you thought you saw some disturbing imagery in the Octagon on Saturday night, your eyes did not deceive you. In his loss to Marc Bocek, Joe Brammer wore a walk-in shirt from Hoelzer Reich, a clothing company who has come under fire for having Nazi-esque symbols on their clothing.
Brammer's shirt has iron crosses all over it, a symbol associated with the Third Reich. Hoelzer Reich has also sold shirts with the SS symbol used by Nazis during World War II and other images used by the Third Reich. Even the skulls on the shirts -- ubiquitous on MMA gear -- are carbon copies of the skulls that were on SS uniforms.
If Brammer wants to wear this shirt down Main St., he is free to do so. The First Amendment guarantees him that right. But free speech does not mean consequence-free speech. Fighters shouldn't be able to wear shirts into the Octagon (and make sponsor money from broadcasts) that promote something so hurtful and offensive.
Hoelzer Reich's defenders -- including Strikeforce fighter Lyle "Fancypants" Beerbohm -- say that the clothing only promotes German-American pride, and as a German-American, that offends me more than anything. I am proud to be German, and live in a traditionally German area of Chicago. We are all able to show our pride in Deutschland without paying homage to such a dark part of history.
The UFC has banned clothing from the Octagon because of squabbles with clothing companies, or because of contract disputes with fighters. They need to take a stand on this, and not allow Hoelzer Reich clothing on a UFC or WEC fighter.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/cagewriter/post/Holzer-Reich-s-Nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-UFC

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: SheerTerror
Date: December 07, 2009 at 07:07 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

I cant say I disagree. While the shirt in question wasn't too bad, the clothing company itself very obviously has Nazi/White Power graphics and should not be allowed into the UFC or on Spike TV.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: UKdonkbet
Date: December 07, 2009 at 07:46 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

google their site, I just did. They have a lot of well known fighters: Primm, Krause, Riggs from one season of TUF, John Eric Marriot who is beast beast beast look up his fights online, and Brain Davidson, AND DONALD CERRONE. I will be pissed if Cerrone is some white trash white power SOB
SheerTerror said:
Hoelzer Reich's defenders -- including Strikeforce fighter Lyle "Fancypants" Beerbohm -- say that the clothing only promotes German-American pride, and as a German-American, that offends me more than anything. I am proud to be German, and live in a traditionally German area of Chicago. We are all able to show our pride in Deutschland without paying homage to such a dark part of history.
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I think this holds alittle extra strength that the OP has German blood. If this offends him, something has to be done. They wouldn't let some body come to the octagon in a klan sheets or whatever they called that get-up. And being from the South, I'm sure I of my long dead relatives or somebody's I know, wore one of those riduculous clown klan suits out of sheer stupidity and ignorance. If somebody wore one to the octagon it would severely offend me. This is completely ridiculous
I commend the OP. +1 sir
I know theres a big difference btwn a klan suit and t-shirts but I think its a valid point

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: filipino
Date: December 07, 2009 at 07:58 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

Thanks to both of you for the posts.
There's certainly nothing wrong with having a little pride in who you are and where you came from, but there are obviously limits to this. In this case, Germans have, sadly, lost some symbols that were venerated for a good while before the Nazis came to power. Those symbols have been corrupted, permanently and irrevocably. End of story.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: UKdonkbet
Date: December 07, 2009 at 08:01 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

filipino said:
In this case, Germans have, sadly, lost some symbols that were venerated for a good while before the Nazis came to power. Those symbols have been corrupted, permanently and irrevocably. End of story.
Click to expand...
Sums it up for me

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Jak
Date: December 07, 2009 at 08:47 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

The fact that some lucky f*cker got to go to his prom with Arianny is even worse news! :x

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: avonbarksdale
Date: December 07, 2009 at 09:21 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

Jak said:
The fact that some lucky f*cker got to go to his prom with Arianny is even worse news! :x
Click to expand...
I know. And the kid isn't even dying or anything.
But anyway, f--- Holzer Reich. I can't believe the s--- they put out. I've seen some of their designs before and they are way over the line.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: SheerTerror
Date: December 07, 2009 at 10:20 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

Cant believe people are so quite about this

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reako
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:29 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

SheerTerror said:
Cant believe people are so quite about this
Click to expand...
because people dont care.
If the shirts would have the swastika I think you would see a different reaction.
When you go out of your way to find simularities of skulls, which plague MMA clothing in general, you will find a hard time getting support.
When you damn the iron cross which is not even known to the general public as a major nazi symbol you will have a hard time getting traction. People are used to seeing that symbol in particular on TV shows past and present like Monster Garage, and American Chopper. Its a big mountain to climb since this symbol seems to have been successfully converted from nazi symbol to a symbol for the biker community, the hard rock community etc. Much like the nazi's confiscated it during WWII, others have confiscated it back since.
Would I buy the clothing, no. Do I think the clothing company has some possible political idealogies that I would not support, yes. If you have to really look hard to find obscure skulls and iron crosses that have since taking on new meanings then you prolly wont get anywhere.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ThuderCat
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:34 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

Agreed. 100%. I think its wrong even if the intention to offend isnt there. Symbols that have such hate and darkness tied to them have no place in the UFC or anywhere else IMO. This reminds me of another argument. The rebel flag which is a symbol of slavery era of the South.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: avonbarksdale
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:41 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

This is a f---ing nazi shirt:

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reako
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:45 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

avonbarksdale said:
This is a f**king nazi shirt:
Click to expand...
It has iron crosses and a skull, oh and the word reich. Still dont see anything specifically deeming this a nazi shirt other then your interpretation of this.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: avonbarksdale
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:47 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

Who the f--- would wear that other than some white power a--hole?
Look at their HR logo. It's
this
close to being a swastika.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reako
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:50 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

avonbarksdale said:
Who the f**k would wear that other than some white power a--hole?
Look at their HR logo. It's
this
close to being a swastika.
Click to expand...
Looks like an H and an R smooshed together to me *shrug*.
The reality is unless they come out and say they are a whie power idealogical clothing company everything else is just speculation.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: CopperHeart
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:50 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

I don't know about this.
Spiked helmets (Pickelhaube), death's heads (Totenkopf) and iron crosses (Eisernes Kreuz) were in Germany/Prussia in the 19th century, decades before the political ascension of the nazi party.
I think it borders on childish (like people with Scarface shirts), and I wouldn't buy it, but I don't think anyone is advocating the extermination of non-aryans here.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: avonbarksdale
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

Reako said:
Looks like an H and an R smooshed together to me *shrug*.
The reality is unless they come out and say they are a whie power idealogical clothing company everything else is just speculation.
Click to expand...
What the f--- are you talking about? It's pretty obvious what they're going for here.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Reako
Date: December 07, 2009 at 11:55 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

avonbarksdale said:
Reako said:
Looks like an H and an R smooshed together to me *shrug*.
The reality is unless they come out and say they are a whie power idealogical clothing company everything else is just speculation.
Click to expand...
What the f**k are you talking about? It's pretty obvious what they're going for here.
Click to expand...
Again speculation. To attempt to say you know whats in someones mind or heart based off an iron cross is a sad statement on your not them. You are not a mind reader. You have no special insight into , well anything. You are seeing what you want to see because you want to be pissed off about something and that scary iron cross gives you something to be pissed off about. You still have no idea whats in the owners of that company's minds or hearts and to claim so is again a sad statement about you.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: filipino
Date: December 08, 2009 at 12:01 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

avonbarksdale said:
Reako said:
Looks like an H and an R smooshed together to me *shrug*.
The reality is unless they come out and say they are a whie power idealogical clothing company everything else is just speculation.
Click to expand...
What the f**k are you talking about? It's pretty obvious what they're going for here.
Click to expand...
Yup. If it walks like one and talks like one...
and CH, I did say in my earlier post that those symbols were around before the Nazis, but I really think that's irrelevant. To borrow UK's example, people were wearing pointy hoods before the Klan was around, but they're obviously just not acceptable anymore.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: avonbarksdale
Date: December 08, 2009 at 12:02 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

Reako said:
Again speculation. To attempt to say you know whats in someones mind or heart based off an iron cross is a sad statement on your not them. You are not a mind reader. You have no special insight into , well anything. You are seeing what you want to see because you want to be pissed off about something and that scary iron cross gives you something to be pissed off about. You still have no idea whats in the owners of that company's minds or hearts and to claim so is again a sad statement about you.
Click to expand...
I can't see inside their hearts? I don't even know how to respond to this nonsense.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ThuderCat
Date: December 08, 2009 at 12:04 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/holzer-reichs-nazi-esque-shirts-make-way-to-ufc.20084/

I agree with Avon. You take the average Joe Shmoe who doesn't know Germanys extensive history and they are going to associate the imagery used as Nazi and not going to think "ah well these were used in the 19th century before the Nazis came along". The general design of this clothing makes one think of Nazi...otherwise this convo wouldn't even be taking place. Great image for the UFC to portray huh? Regardless if that's the aim or not.