Is closed guard dead?

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ModestMMA
Date: November 24, 2010 at 06:12 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

Jon Fitch said that the closed guard was dead in MMA. What do you guys think of this? I hope it isn't; I just don't want it to be dead!
Seriously though I think that the phenomenon he explains is not the closed guard being "dead" but rather a majority of the UFC talent, or at least a majority of the welterweight division in which Fitch fights, not having terribly active guards.
What say you?

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Paul_UK
Date: November 24, 2010 at 06:18 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

Fitch is right about people he fights not having active guards, and I think that's the problem. To combat top wrestlers, fighters shouldn't focus too much on improving their wrestling. Someone with no wrestling background trying to out wrestle someone like Fitch is like me (a 19 year old, 5' 10" white guy) trying to beat LeBron James in a 1-on-1 basketball match. It's just never going to happen. Instead, fighters should look at the other aspect of ground fighting - jiu jitsu. Working more on their jiu jitsu will improve their overall ground game and they may get their jiu jitsu to a level where they can successfully compete against top wrestlers.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: grapplethis
Date: November 24, 2010 at 06:29 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

you have to open your guard for your guard to be active.
the statement pertains to people content to play guard in mma. it IS stupid now. being satisfied with fighting off your back will lose you a lot of fights these days.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ArcArsenal
Date: November 24, 2010 at 06:35 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

With grapple.
I think the only way you can have a succesful closed guard is if you are able to LOCK your arms around the back of your opponents neck, so the he can't create enough space to advance position or work, to force a standup. And then hope you don't get taken down again.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: bjj_rage
Date: November 24, 2010 at 10:20 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

grapplethis said:
you have to open your guard for your guard to be active.
the statement pertains to people content to play guard in mma. it IS stupid now. being satisfied with fighting off your back will lose you a lot of fights these days.
Click to expand...
playing guard with this retards judges of now, unless somehow you sub the guy, is going to make you lose the fight, thats for sure... it doesnt matter how much damage you can do, even from the bottom...

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Pandragon
Date: November 24, 2010 at 10:34 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

I think at least when it concerns Fitch, he would be correct.
It is all relative to the fighters though.
The thing with Fitch is that you can close your guard till the cows come home and he is going to posture and drop elbows on your face. There is almost no reason to do it because he is going to hit you no matter what so you might as well open your guard, try to sweep, try to do something to stand up, anything. I don't know any actual stats but would bet that stand-ups are few and far between when Fitch is on top of someone who is trying to hold him down in a closed guard. Boring he may be, but active enough to win very 1-sided fights while laying in guard all day.
As for other fighters, like I said imo it just depends. You probably don't want to close guard and hope you get a stand up vs GSP for the same reasons or Matt Hughes back in the dizay when he was destorying people.
You still see lots of closed guard in lesser skilled fighters though because the guy on top is not as capable of making you pay if you are going for a hold-on/ref stand up.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Woody90
Date: November 24, 2010 at 10:45 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

Timed rounds and stands up are part of the reason why closed guards aren't very effective in MMA as of late.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: mightymice
Date: November 24, 2010 at 10:59 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

KingofMidgets said:
Boring he may be, but active enough to win very 1-sided fights while laying in guard all day.
Click to expand...
Fitch is actually not in his opponent's guard that much. The only fight recently he spent a decent amount of time in someone's guard was the Saunders fight.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: BabyJayKoscheck
Date: November 25, 2010 at 08:36 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

Woody90 said:
Timed rounds and stands up are part of the reason why closed guards aren't very effective in MMA as of late.
Click to expand...
This.
Plus I remember right after he said that. Leben and Silva executed triangles off their backs in the waning moments of their bouts with Akiyama and Sonnen respectively.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: bjj_rage
Date: November 25, 2010 at 08:44 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

BabyJayKoscheck said:
Woody90 said:
Timed rounds and stands up are part of the reason why closed guards aren't very effective in MMA as of late.
Click to expand...
This.
Plus I remember right after he said that. Leben and Silva executed triangles off their backs in the waning moments of their bouts with Akiyama and Sonnen respectively.
Click to expand...
this is about the close guard, not the guard it self... I think silva played close guard for most of the match agaisnt Sonnen, though part of it was because sonnen wasnt very interested in passing silvas guard either (and he paid for it)... Do not remember leben vs akiyama all that well, but I dont think it the triangle came out of the close guard...

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Cunny
Date: November 25, 2010 at 09:21 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

Woody90 said:
Timed rounds and stands up are part of the reason why closed guards aren't very effective in MMA as of late.
Click to expand...
I don't understand this. I thought a closed guard, suppressing the top fighter's activity would warrant a standup and therefore be effective. Could you explain why I'm wrong? Or do you mean from a perspective of dominating on the ground?

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: bjj_rage
Date: November 25, 2010 at 09:34 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

Cunny said:
Woody90 said:
Timed rounds and stands up are part of the reason why closed guards aren't very effective in MMA as of late.
Click to expand...
I don't understand this. I thought a closed guard, suppressing the top fighter's activity would warrant a standup and therefore be effective. Could you explain why I'm wrong? Or do you mean from a perspective of dominating on the ground?
Click to expand...
who says the close guard goal is to force a stand up???

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Cunny
Date: November 25, 2010 at 09:45 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

bjj_rage said:
Cunny said:
Woody90 said:
Timed rounds and stands up are part of the reason why closed guards aren't very effective in MMA as of late.
Click to expand...
I don't understand this. I thought a closed guard, suppressing the top fighter's activity would warrant a standup and therefore be effective. Could you explain why I'm wrong? Or do you mean from a perspective of dominating on the ground?
Click to expand...
who says the close guard goal is to force a stand up???
Click to expand...
I'm just saying that it can be, given that a relatively small minority of fighters are dangerous off their backs. But I see where Woody's post was coming from now.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: grapplethis
Date: November 25, 2010 at 12:38 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

BabyJayKoscheck said:
Woody90 said:
Timed rounds and stands up are part of the reason why closed guards aren't very effective in MMA as of late.
Click to expand...
This.
Plus I remember right after he said that. Leben and Silva executed triangles off their backs in the waning moments of their bouts with Akiyama and Sonnen respectively.
Click to expand...
gotta open your guard to pull off a triangle.
there is not a single submission in the book that you can do without opening your guard. except maybe the frank mir shoulder lock and if you're fighting a TERRIBLE grappler, i've seen arm triangles from the bottom with a closed guard. but that's it. the mir lock happened maybe twice in the sport AFAIK and arm triangle from the bottom has never happened.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: bjj_rage
Date: November 25, 2010 at 02:56 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

grapplethis said:
BabyJayKoscheck said:
Woody90 said:
Timed rounds and stands up are part of the reason why closed guards aren't very effective in MMA as of late.
Click to expand...
This.
Plus I remember right after he said that. Leben and Silva executed triangles off their backs in the waning moments of their bouts with Akiyama and Sonnen respectively.
Click to expand...
gotta open your guard to pull off a triangle.
there is not a single submission in the book that you can do without opening your guard. except maybe the frank mir shoulder lock and if you're fighting a TERRIBLE grappler, i've seen arm triangles from the bottom with a closed guard. but that's it. the mir lock happened maybe twice in the sport AFAIK and arm triangle from the bottom has never happened.
Click to expand...
kimura, if you have long legs, is not necesary to open your guard, hell its even better to do it with your guard close to prevent the other guy rolling out of it...

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: grapplethis
Date: November 25, 2010 at 02:59 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

you gotta have REALLY long legs. i was tought to shrimp out a bit so that my right leg (if i've got a kimura on their left arm) is over their back and my left leg is just kind of out. VERY open guard. without stefan struve-esque legs, you'd never be able to torque the arm enough to get a tap without opening your guard up.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: bjj_rage
Date: November 25, 2010 at 03:07 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

grapplethis said:
you gotta have REALLY long legs. i was tought to shrimp out a bit so that my right leg (if i've got a kimura on their left arm) is over their back and my left leg is just kind of out. VERY open guard. without stefan struve-esque legs, you'd never be able to torque the arm enough to get a tap without opening your guard up.
Click to expand...
indeed you need long legs, but not that long... every tall guy in my gym goes for it without open the guard, if you open it, and you are doing it from close guard, the person can still scape, even if you place your leg on top of him, this happes a lot specially if the guy is much bigger stronger, though skinny tall guys can still prevent them to roll out of it if they do not open the guard, you secure the kimura, then adjust the position (hip out ) to get the right angle...

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: grapplethis
Date: November 25, 2010 at 03:12 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

bjj_rage said:
grapplethis said:
you gotta have REALLY long legs. i was tought to shrimp out a bit so that my right leg (if i've got a kimura on their left arm) is over their back and my left leg is just kind of out. VERY open guard. without stefan struve-esque legs, you'd never be able to torque the arm enough to get a tap without opening your guard up.
Click to expand...
indeed you need long legs, but not that long... every tall guy in my gym goes for it without open the guard, if you open it, and you are doing it from close guard, the person can still scape, even if you place your leg on top of him, this happes a lot specially if the guy is much bigger stronger, though skinny tall guys can still prevent them to roll out of it if they do not open the guard, you secure the kimura, then adjust the position (hip out ) to get the right angle...
Click to expand...
you'd agree though that it makes torquing the arm harder though?
i'm a short stubby little f---er. and the kimura is one of my go to moves. but i cannot work it from bottom without opening my guard.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: bjj_rage
Date: November 25, 2010 at 03:24 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

grapplethis said:
bjj_rage said:
grapplethis said:
you gotta have REALLY long legs. i was tought to shrimp out a bit so that my right leg (if i've got a kimura on their left arm) is over their back and my left leg is just kind of out. VERY open guard. without stefan struve-esque legs, you'd never be able to torque the arm enough to get a tap without opening your guard up.
Click to expand...
indeed you need long legs, but not that long... every tall guy in my gym goes for it without open the guard, if you open it, and you are doing it from close guard, the person can still scape, even if you place your leg on top of him, this happes a lot specially if the guy is much bigger stronger, though skinny tall guys can still prevent them to roll out of it if they do not open the guard, you secure the kimura, then adjust the position (hip out ) to get the right angle...
Click to expand...
you'd agree though that it makes torquing the arm harder though?
i'm a short stubby little f***er. and the kimura is one of my go to moves. but i cannot work it from bottom without opening my guard.
Click to expand...
for me? hell yeah lol... dont know for the other tall guys, but like I told you, tall guys in my gym go for it with the guard close, they must hip out though in order to get the righ angle for the torque, there is no way you can get the kimura if you dont hip out to the side...
Im pretty short too lol, and kimuras are one of my favorite moves, If I cant get it, I usually switch to a sit up sweep, actually, my intention is always the sweep, but if the guy does not defend the arm that im blocking to get the sweep, I just go for the kimura...

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: darcebandit
Date: November 26, 2010 at 04:38 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/is-closed-guard-dead.32683/

Rubber guard is the only version of closed guard that works well for me. Butterfly is not great for MMA, better for straight grappling. Normal double wrist control closed guard from Gracie or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is gone, doesn't work well on a person who is trying desperately to strike and pass intelligently. X guard will never work for MMA, too easy to strike from. People need to go for sweeps from guard more, look at what Big Nog did to Randy in his fight, didn't go for many submissions from his back, he just swept him instead and then tried for submissions from mount.
Against a strong wrestler, my plan would be to strike at range, sprawl if I can but if he is deep on a shot then just pull full guard because there is a fence battle which you probably wont win so I would rather go to the ground on my terms. I wouldn't pull it i the way Dave Branch did though :lol:
Paul Sass, Dustin Hazelett, Shinya Aoki, Diego Sanchez and other great guard guys don't have any secrets, they are just very comfortable on their backs because they don't mind being there. Cole Miller is another great example.
The guard is just in an evolution period, it needs to improve, people know that and are trying to fix it in different ways. Personally I think Rubber Guard is the best evolution of the guard I have seen so far.