Keep the Juice Coming, But Who Should Know?

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: sourpuss
Date: July 13, 2011 at 09:11 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

So I suppose Nate will continue on with his "therapy" now that this big misunderstanding is behind him. I mean, if TRT is something he really needs it could be extremely unhealthy to cease just because of some mix up in procedure. After all, his health should be number one priority.
With that possibility in mind, I think it's only fair to his competition that he formally informs them before the fight that he spent his entire training camp on increased doses of testosterone. Not that it would make any kind of difference or anything. It's not like Nate is taking the stuff to ..um ...improve anything.
Does a fighter have the right to know, in confidence with the Commission, that his opponent is taking treatments that potentially give him more strength, energy and alertness during training and leading up to the fight?

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: PsychoIcon
Date: July 13, 2011 at 09:13 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

The thing is me, you, your neighbor, bestfriend, bro-in-law all might have average levels of trt or whatnot, and these fighters are flying right under the radar. So they still have more testerone than the guy that isnt doing it.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ResoluteProtector
Date: July 13, 2011 at 09:41 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

sourpuss said:
So I suppose Nate will continue on with his "therapy" now that this big misunderstanding is behind him. I mean, if TRT is something he really needs it could be extremely unhealthy to cease just because of some mix up in procedure. After all, his health should be number one priority.
With that possibility in mind, I think it's only fair to his competition that he formally informs them before the fight that he spent his entire training camp on increased doses of testosterone. Not that it would make any kind of difference or anything. It's not like Nate is taking the stuff to ..um ...improve anything.
Does a fighter have the right to know, in confidence with the Commission, that his opponent is taking treatments that potentially give him more strength, energy and alertness during training and leading up to the fight?
Click to expand...
Wow you go back and forth with this one. Quoting the word therapy then following it up seemingly as if you may actually truly care about his welfare.
I think its safe to say that anyone who follows MMA even to the slightest degree is now aware that Marquardt is undergoing TRT. I also think that it is safe to say based on the Athletic Commissions reinstatement that it has been deemed Medically Necessary for his case. That all being said, is it fair that he should inform his competition, personally if it were me undergoing TRT and competing? Yes. Is if fair to make him have to do so? No, and to be honest it's unlawful. It can only be done if he chooses to do so as a result of the Patient Privacy Acct of 1974. Continuing on, I wonder if Dan Henderson, who has been coined as the first Professional Fighter to undergo TRT has been informing his opponents, and whether you think he should have to do so or not. At the end of the day, consistency should be the goal if it comes to forcing fighters to inform their competition, but I doubt that will happen as again it is unlawful. Dan came out with his own his own, but has been said to have been on therapy for some years now. With that in mind, I wouldn't think it too far of a stretch to believe that there are other fighters outside of Henderson, Marquardt and possibly Sonnen who are undergoing therapy that we just don't know about.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: PsychoIcon
Date: July 13, 2011 at 09:47 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

ResoluteProtector said:
sourpuss said:
So I suppose Nate will continue on with his "therapy" now that this big misunderstanding is behind him. I mean, if TRT is something he really needs it could be extremely unhealthy to cease just because of some mix up in procedure. After all, his health should be number one priority.
With that possibility in mind, I think it's only fair to his competition that he formally informs them before the fight that he spent his entire training camp on increased doses of testosterone. Not that it would make any kind of difference or anything. It's not like Nate is taking the stuff to ..um ...improve anything.
Does a fighter have the right to know, in confidence with the Commission, that his opponent is taking treatments that potentially give him more strength, energy and alertness during training and leading up to the fight?
Click to expand...
Wow you go back and forth with this one. Quoting the word therapy then following it up seemingly as if you may actually truly care about his welfare.
I think its safe to say that anyone who follows MMA even to the slightest degree is now aware that Marquardt is undergoing TRT. I also think that it is safe to say based on the Athletic Commissions reinstatement that it has been deemed Medically Necessary for his case. That all being said, is it fair that he should inform his competition, personally if it were me undergoing TRT and competing? Yes. Is if fair to make him have to do so? No, and to be honest it's unlawful. It can only be done if he chooses to do so as a result of the Patient Privacy Acct of 1974. Continuing on, I wonder if Dan Henderson, who has been coined as the first Professional Fighter to undergo TRT has been informing his opponents, and whether you think he should have to do so or not. At the end of the day, consistency should be the goal if it comes to forcing fighters to inform their competition, but I doubt that will happen as again it is unlawful. Dan came out with his own his own, but has been said to have been on therapy for some years now. With that in mind, I wouldn't think it too far of a stretch to believe that there are other fighters outside of Henderson, Marquardt and possibly Sonnen who are undergoing therapy that we just don't know about.
Click to expand...
When your an athlete and your body is money, you cant hide things of value that people have invested in, even if it is your body. This is why they have injury reports and have to report back to there teams in baseball and football, and whatever.
You competing against another being 1vs1 and I think you shouldnt have to release any information that is important in a competitive nature. Like pursay if he had a third nipple, or some s---, but if it has anything to do with performance enhancing or whatever his doctor would have to clear it threw the athletic commission period, and the decision for the athletic department which the rules have been set by Each State, is its own personal choice to release that information. Conflict of Intrest here.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ResoluteProtector
Date: July 13, 2011 at 10:02 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

PsychoIcon said:
ResoluteProtector said:
sourpuss said:
So I suppose Nate will continue on with his "therapy" now that this big misunderstanding is behind him. I mean, if TRT is something he really needs it could be extremely unhealthy to cease just because of some mix up in procedure. After all, his health should be number one priority.
With that possibility in mind, I think it's only fair to his competition that he formally informs them before the fight that he spent his entire training camp on increased doses of testosterone. Not that it would make any kind of difference or anything. It's not like Nate is taking the stuff to ..um ...improve anything.
Does a fighter have the right to know, in confidence with the Commission, that his opponent is taking treatments that potentially give him more strength, energy and alertness during training and leading up to the fight?
Click to expand...
Wow you go back and forth with this one. Quoting the word therapy then following it up seemingly as if you may actually truly care about his welfare.
I think its safe to say that anyone who follows MMA even to the slightest degree is now aware that Marquardt is undergoing TRT. I also think that it is safe to say based on the Athletic Commissions reinstatement that it has been deemed Medically Necessary for his case. That all being said, is it fair that he should inform his competition, personally if it were me undergoing TRT and competing? Yes. Is if fair to make him have to do so? No, and to be honest it's unlawful. It can only be done if he chooses to do so as a result of the Patient Privacy Acct of 1974. Continuing on, I wonder if Dan Henderson, who has been coined as the first Professional Fighter to undergo TRT has been informing his opponents, and whether you think he should have to do so or not. At the end of the day, consistency should be the goal if it comes to forcing fighters to inform their competition, but I doubt that will happen as again it is unlawful. Dan came out with his own his own, but has been said to have been on therapy for some years now. With that in mind, I wouldn't think it too far of a stretch to believe that there are other fighters outside of Henderson, Marquardt and possibly Sonnen who are undergoing therapy that we just don't know about.
Click to expand...
When your an athlete and your body is money, you cant hide things of value that people have invested in, even if it is your body. This is why they have injury reports and have to report back to there teams in baseball and football, and whatever.
You competing against another being 1vs1 and I think you shouldnt have to release any information that is important in a competitive nature. Like pursay if he had a third nipple, or some s**t, but if it has anything to do with performance enhancing or whatever his doctor would have to clear it threw the athletic commission period, and the decision for the athletic department which the rules have been set by Each State, is its own personal choice to release that information. Conflict of Intrest here.
Click to expand...
Yes, as an athlete you can't hide medical issues or treatments, but hiding them in the terms you use and disclosing it to the proper authorities are two different things. And this is something that I was trying to drive home when everyone was saying that Nate was cheating. The Athletic Commissions were made aware as the appropriate authorities. If a fighter wants to participate in, well, let's take MMA. The Athletic Commission have a right to know all pertinent information if a fighter wishes to be medically cleared. The AC was already aware that Marquardt was undergoing TRT. The necessary documentation, and medical records, and tests and test results were already being furnished to them. the reason being, because Marquardt attempted to do things by the book. And when he told them the AC had every right to poke, prod and scrutinize every page of reports, as questions, requests clarification and then on top of that have it all looked and and even confirmed by their Medical Advisory Board. That is why when the news broke it wasn't about pass or fail, it was simply about the "medical status and effectiveness of the treatment." It was no longer considered a Performance-Enhancing Drug, it was medication; just as it is for Dan Henderson. But everyone thought that they knew better than the professionals. And now it is crystal clear that "EVERYONE" save myself was wrong. Otherwise, Nate would still be suspended; that is, unless this is a conspiracy. Competitive nature or not, Medical Information cannot legally be released even to the Athletic Commission without that person's permission. It is the FEDERAL LAW, which supersedes even the Athletic Commission. I wouldn't have been saying it for so long, even in the midst of nearly every junkie being a naysayer, if I didn't know. Otherwise, I'd just be another dumb, blind idiot spewing sh*t with nothing to back me up, and that is just not my style.
EDITED: Nice back pedaling. :lol:
EDITED AGAIN: That makes two of you, this is getting good.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Sapper
Date: July 13, 2011 at 11:16 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

I still think he was cheating and just using the TRT as the reason once he knew he would get caught. In the documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster" they talk about how easy it is to get a doctor to right a prescription for testosterone. You can get one from a chiropractor for gods sakes. Its like going to a doc in Cali with head aches and asking for weed. Now this does not mean that everyone who is on TRT is cheating. Look at what Herderson said. He has never been above normal levels,
never
. This shows to me that this is a needed treatment. Nate was over normal levels, twice, once in NJ and the other in Penn. I know that this kind of thing can take time to regulate in a persons body, but Nate had more then enough time to figure this out in the time table that he put forward about how long he had been on TRT. He gets cleared now and people think this shows he was on the up and up. To me it shows he was cheating even more. Why say he was fine on fight night, but not get cleared that week? Because his levels were not OK and it has taken this long to get back down to a level that is "normal".
Sonnen is a different case, he was suspended for not disclosing the information in the right way. Now time will tell with him, if he really needs TRT he should never test high again.
To the real question in this thread. I think that if a fighter has a medical issue, that is between them and the AC in that state. His opponent doesn't need to know his medial history, nor do they have a right to know it. If a person really needs TRT it should never be an issue because it is taken to make sure they have the same levels as you or I. If they come back as high, then there is an issue.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ResoluteProtector
Date: July 14, 2011 at 12:07 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

Sapper said:
I still think he was cheating and just using the TRT as the reason once he knew he would get caught. In the documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster" they talk about how easy it is to get a doctor to right a prescription for testosterone. You can get one from a chiropractor for gods sakes. Its like going to a doc in Cali with head aches and asking for weed. Now this does not mean that everyone who is on TRT is cheating. Look at what Herderson said. He has never been above normal levels,
never
. This shows to me that this is a needed treatment. Nate was over normal levels, twice, once in NJ and the other in Penn. I know that this kind of thing can take time to regulate in a persons body, but Nate had more then enough time to figure this out in the time table that he put forward about how long he had been on TRT. He gets cleared now and people think this shows he was on the up and up. To me it shows he was cheating even more. Why say he was fine on fight night, but not get cleared that week? Because his levels were not OK and it has taken this long to get back down to a level that is "normal".
Sonnen is a different case, he was suspended for not disclosing the information in the right way. Now time will tell with him, if he really needs TRT he should never test high again.
To the real question in this thread. I think that if a fighter has a medical issue, that is between them and the AC in that state. His opponent doesn't need to know his medial history, nor do they have a right to know it. If a person really needs TRT it should never be an issue because it is taken to make sure they have the same levels as you or I. If they come back as high, then there is an issue.
Click to expand...
While it may be true that it is easy to get a doctor to write an order for Testosterone, that has no bearing on the fact that any AC would have approval of the Therapy deemed necessary by their own Medical Advisory Board. And while I would personally take Henderson at his word as he has given me no reason to personally not do so, it is just that, his word. Also I don't know why NJ would allow Nate to participate in the Bout against Miller if he was OVER Normal limits. to clarify, I think the test that came back high was after his fight with Miller and was the same High Test result that prevented Nate from competing against Story, if this is the case, and there is no evidence that I have seen or heard of to disprove that, then in fact he tested high once, not twice. The rest of your comment is PURELY speculation with no substantiating evidence, save for the fact that it does take time to regulate in a person's body.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: armbarandgrill
Date: July 14, 2011 at 06:46 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

Sapper said:
To the real question in this thread. I think that if a fighter has a medical issue, that is between them and the AC in that state. His opponent doesn't need to know his medial history, nor do they have a right to know it. If a person really needs TRT it should never be an issue because it is taken to make sure they have the same levels as you or I. If they come back as high, then there is an issue.
Click to expand...
85% of junkies disagree.
i think the problem is that testosterone depletion is something that happens naturally with age. the treatments are a hoax that is being exploited by some fighters to gain an advantage during training. calling it anything else is smoke and mirrors.
if you gain the advantage your opponent deserves to know what he's dealing with.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: armbarandgrill
Date: July 14, 2011 at 08:22 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

the way i'm looking at this is, an athletic commission has absolutely no legal right to access a fighter's medical records. neither does their doctor.
if a fighter wants to fight within a certain commissions' jurisdiction, the must volunteer any information the commission requests. full disclosure. he volunteeeily grants full access to the AC because he wants to fight.
the fighter does not HAVE to give the commission this private information - he can keep his private info private by not taking the fight.
IMO the same principle should apply to his opponent. actually, the guy you will be in physical competition has more right to know your medical "enhancements" than the AC in charge. why should a bunch of uninvolved suits have acces to federally protected medical records and your opponent not? because you want the fight and volunteer all necessary information to the AC...and so should you to your opponent.
if it needs to be reported to the governing body in the best interest of safety and fairness, so too though it be reported to your opponent.
that's my take on it.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: REDRUM
Date: July 14, 2011 at 11:45 AM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

I wont ever buy that he "needs" TRT...
I agree with Bas here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/v/mkEjNLBVzc4[/youtube]

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: PsychoIcon
Date: July 14, 2011 at 12:01 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

theREDRUM said:
I wont ever buy that he "needs" TRT...
I agree with Bas here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/v/mkEjNLBVzc4[/youtube]
Click to expand...
I love Bas.... Everything about him is cool, even his name

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ResoluteProtector
Date: July 14, 2011 at 01:31 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

armbarandgrill said:
Sapper said:
To the real question in this thread. I think that if a fighter has a medical issue, that is between them and the AC in that state. His opponent doesn't need to know his medial history, nor do they have a right to know it. If a person really needs TRT it should never be an issue because it is taken to make sure they have the same levels as you or I. If they come back as high, then there is an issue.
Click to expand...
85% of junkies disagree.
i think the problem is that testosterone depletion is something that happens naturally with age. the treatments are a hoax that is being exploited by some fighters to gain an advantage during training. calling it anything else is smoke and mirrors.
if you gain the advantage your opponent deserves to know what he's dealing with.
Click to expand...
So you feel like Hendo is exploiting it?

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ResoluteProtector
Date: July 14, 2011 at 01:34 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

armbarandgrill said:
the way i'm looking at this is, an athletic commission has absolutely no legal right to access a fighter's medical records. neither does their doctor.
if a fighter wants to fight within a certain commissions' jurisdiction, the must volunteer any information the commission requests. full disclosure. he volunteeeily grants full access to the AC because he wants to fight.
the fighter does not HAVE to give the commission this private information - he can keep his private info private by not taking the fight.
IMO the same principle should apply to his opponent. actually, the guy you will be in physical competition has more right to know your medical "enhancements" than the AC in charge. why should a bunch of uninvolved suits have acces to federally protected medical records and your opponent not? because you want the fight and volunteer all necessary information to the AC...and so should you to your opponent.
if it needs to be reported to the governing body in the best interest of safety and fairness, so too though it be reported to your opponent.
that's my take on it.
Click to expand...
True, BUT, if a fighter wants to be licensed and medically cleared to fight then you best believe they will have to sign a release to allow the AC and their MAB to see proper tests and diagnoses to allow them to compete with the knowledge they are undergoing TRT.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ResoluteProtector
Date: July 14, 2011 at 01:39 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

theREDRUM said:
I wont ever buy that he "needs" TRT...
I agree with Bas here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/v/mkEjNLBVzc4[/youtube]
Click to expand...
Who is this last guy in this video? Co-signing on a couple of things I've been saying. Sounds like he's on HRT.
And while I agree with Bas, I would advise people not read too much into it, as he uses about three or four "ifs."

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: armbarandgrill
Date: July 14, 2011 at 01:50 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

ResoluteProtector said:
armbarandgrill said:
Sapper said:
To the real question in this thread. I think that if a fighter has a medical issue, that is between them and the AC in that state. His opponent doesn't need to know his medial history, nor do they have a right to know it. If a person really needs TRT it should never be an issue because it is taken to make sure they have the same levels as you or I. If they come back as high, then there is an issue.
Click to expand...
85% of junkies disagree.
i think the problem is that testosterone depletion is something that happens naturally with age. the treatments are a hoax that is being exploited by some fighters to gain an advantage during training. calling it anything else is smoke and mirrors.
if you gain the advantage your opponent deserves to know what he's dealing with.
Click to expand...
So you feel like Hendo is exploiting it?
Click to expand...
of course. if he's been taking "treatment" for 3 years he's been cheating (though carlessly legally) for 3 years.
the rules make it legal, but the rules are nonsense.
all three of them are looking for an advantage over their former selves if not their competition. gaining an advantage by use of testosterone injections is suposed to be against the rules but somewhere along the line somone approached a slack AC with a clever doctor and created this very fighter-specific ailment.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ResoluteProtector
Date: July 14, 2011 at 02:05 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

armbarandgrill said:
ResoluteProtector said:
armbarandgrill said:
85% of junkies disagree.
i think the problem is that testosterone depletion is something that happens naturally with age. the treatments are a hoax that is being exploited by some fighters to gain an advantage during training. calling it anything else is smoke and mirrors.
if you gain the advantage your opponent deserves to know what he's dealing with.
Click to expand...
So you feel like Hendo is exploiting it?
Click to expand...
of course. if he's been taking "treatment" for 3 years he's been cheating (though carlessly legally) for 3 years.
the rules make it legal, but the rules are nonsense.
all three of them are looking for an advantage over their former selves if not their competition. gaining an advantage by use of testosterone injections is suposed to be against the rules but somewhere along the line somone approached a slack AC with a clever doctor and created this very fighter-specific ailment.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Though I personally disagree with your stance, at least I can respect the consistency. Thanks for the response.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: itadakimasu
Date: July 14, 2011 at 02:09 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

It's obviously a tricky situation.
I think Dennis Hallman is a great spokesman on the subject. He obviously knows what he's talking about and takes offense when people don't have their facts straight.
If Nate used steroids in the past and as a result his testes don't produce normal testosterone, I don't think it's out of the question to seek treatment. If that's the case. Otherwise, I think they should narrow down restrictions and test for actual steroids and not just signs of steroid usage that could also be false positive from other substances.
There are tons of supplements out there that could very well cause fluctuations in certain hormones. That's not the same as injecting HGH or other actual steroids. I dont think you can lump that together with HRT.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: armbarandgrill
Date: July 14, 2011 at 02:49 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

optimus828 said:
It's obviously a tricky situation.
I think Dennis Hallman is a great spokesman on the subject. He obviously knows what he's talking about and takes offense when people don't have their facts straight.
If Nate used steroids in the past and as a result his testes don't produce normal testosterone, I don't think it's out of the question to seek treatment. If that's the case. Otherwise, I think they should narrow down restrictions and test for actual steroids and not just signs of steroid usage that could also be false positive from other substances.
There are tons of supplements out there that could very well cause fluctuations in certain hormones. That's not the same as injecting HGH or other actual steroids. I dont think you can lump that together with HRT.
Click to expand...
i'd be very interested to know how many non-athletes require this treatment. take for example a blue collar guy who works a very physically demanding job, like a stone mason, carpenter ot lumberjack. how many average joes are running to their doctors and being prescribed TRT to treat their nasty irritability, grumpiness or loss of concentration.
without knowing the facts i'd go out on a limb and say the ratio of non-athletes being prescribed this "treatment" is rediculously low compared to the ratio of pro athletes who are taking it.
it's all BS. it's a legal loophole to cheating.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: ResoluteProtector
Date: July 14, 2011 at 03:27 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

optimus828 said:
It's obviously a tricky situation.
I think Dennis Hallman is a great spokesman on the subject. He obviously knows what he's talking about and takes offense when people don't have their facts straight.
If Nate used steroids in the past and as a result his testes don't produce normal testosterone, I don't think it's out of the question to seek treatment. If that's the case. Otherwise, I think they should narrow down restrictions and test for actual steroids and not just signs of steroid usage that could also be false positive from other substances.
There are tons of supplements out there that could very well cause fluctuations in certain hormones. That's not the same as injecting HGH or other actual steroids. I dont think you can lump that together with HRT.
Click to expand...
Hallman! Thanks, the face was familiar but the name was eluding me.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: sourpuss
Date: July 14, 2011 at 06:54 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/keep-the-juice-coming-but-who-should-know.40437/

armbarandgrill said:
i'd be very interested to know how many non-athletes require this treatment. take for example a blue collar guy who works a very physically demanding job, like a stone mason, carpenter ot lumberjack. how many average joes are running to their doctors and being prescribed TRT to treat their nasty irritability, grumpiness or loss of concentration.
without knowing the facts i'd go out on a limb and say the ratio of non-athletes being prescribed this "treatment" is rediculously low compared to the ratio of pro athletes who are taking it.
it's all BS. it's a legal loophole to cheating.
Click to expand...
Boom! ^ There it is!