Meeting of the Minds
- Thread starter Nastycrow
- Start date
A few of the managers commented on MMAFighting. I think everyone knows, even the UFC at this point, that the deal gotta be changed in some shape or form.
"I don't have anyone on my team that thinks it's a good deal," Cox said. "The only people who like it are the guys who have 20 fights and still aren't title contenders."
"This Reebok deal is not going away," Roberts said. "It's just not gonna go away. It's gotta be fixed. It's gotta be tweaked, because everybody is not worth the same."
"To me that is a huge insult and I can understand the fighters' frustrations," Butler-Au said.
http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/5/1...anagers-speak-out-on-ufc-reebok-pay-structure
What are they really going to do? These guys don't make rules, promote fights, or really have any lasting impact on the fight game. The only way they can make a difference is if the fighters they represent start to hold out of fights, or don't resign with the UFC. For the most part I don't see that happening. Bellator is not the Juggernaut some may think and cannot sing a bunch of top level fighters.
Sapper said:
What are they really going to do? These guys don't make rules, promote fights, or really have any lasting impact on the fight game. The only way they can make a difference is if the fighters they represent start to hold out of fights, or don't resign with the UFC. For the most part I don't see that happening. Bellator is not the Juggernaut some may think and cannot sing a bunch of top level fighters.
Click to expand...
If i'm not mistaken, it's also been pointed out, that the one "benefit" to this, is that the fighters don't have to pay the 20% fee to their managers for finding sponsors.
Sapper said:
What are they really going to do? These guys don't make rules, promote fights, or really have any lasting impact on the fight game. The only way they can make a difference is if the fighters they represent start to hold out of fights, or don't resign with the UFC. For the most part I don't see that happening. Bellator is not the Juggernaut some may think and cannot sing a bunch of top level fighters.
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure what they can do, but meeting up to discuss what can be done is a hell of a lot better than just accepting whatever the UFC chooses to do. I think we'll likely see more fighters see out their contracts & talk to other promotions, not all of them are going to be signed by Bellator but for some fighters it'll make financial sense. And maybe if Bellator get a few big name fighters the UFC might change their tune.
And as Canuck just mentioned, union talk might go on. Obviously it's not going to happen in 1 meeting, but managers each representing multiple fighters could start the ball rolling.
Jak said:
MMA managers haven't exactly had a track record of being good business people.
They remind me of when football or baseball players have their friends or families as managers.
Click to expand...
In the article the manager for Guida and Browne bring up something similar to what you wrote (for those who don't want to go read the article):
"The barrier for entry to become a manager or agent in this space does not exist," Fosco said. "So when you have zero barrier to entry, a lot of the people are viewed as whatever in the industry. They haven't really done sh*t, but talked their way into some young kid's brain who has a fantasy and capitalized by signing him. To Roberts' point about purses being lower than they could be because UFC fighters could always attain outside in-cage sponsors, Fosco said he believes that the UFC pays its athletes "100 percent" fairly. "These guys who do not sell tickets and do not get ratings with the crop of talent out there, what the f*ck are they worth?" Fosco said. "They're not owed anything. There's this mentality, 'Oh, I'm owed something.' You're given an opportunity. You want to make money? Go knock the f*ck out of people, because I promise Dana will pay you if you go out there and knock the f*ck out of people."
To an extent I agree with Fosco. I am of the belief that most everyone thinks fighters should get paid fairly but with that said I also think it is fair to say that some fighters are overpaid. In the article they mentioned Brendan Schaub and Sara McMann. Both people you could argue are overpaid.
Tum Tum said:
In the article the manager for Guida and Browne bring up something similar to what you wrote (for those who don't want to go read the article):
"The barrier for entry to become a manager or agent in this space does not exist," Fosco said. "So when you have zero barrier to entry, a lot of the people are viewed as whatever in the industry. They haven't really done sh*t, but talked their way into some young kid's brain who has a fantasy and capitalized by signing him. To Roberts' point about purses being lower than they could be because UFC fighters could always attain outside in-cage sponsors, Fosco said he believes that the UFC pays its athletes "100 percent" fairly. "These guys who do not sell tickets and do not get ratings with the crop of talent out there, what the f*ck are they worth?" Fosco said. "They're not owed anything. There's this mentality, 'Oh, I'm owed something.' You're given an opportunity. You want to make money? Go knock the f*ck out of people, because I promise Dana will pay you if you go out there and knock the f*ck out of people."
To an extent I agree with Fosco. I am of the belief that most everyone thinks fighters should get paid fairly but with that said I also think it is fair to say that some fighters are overpaid. In the article they mentioned Brendan Schaub and Sara McMann. Both people you could argue are overpaid.
Click to expand...
Schaub makes what his sponsors believe he's worth, I don't think that means he's overpaid. His podcast is apparently extremely popular (I believe he's mentioned he makes more from that than he does the UFC) so that might factor into his sponsorship money.
Jak said:
Does Brandon Schaub know we only tune into to see him get knocked the f*ck out? When he wins, no one is happy.
Click to expand...
Cant get enough of that rothwell gif, he starts to grab the air while rothwell is hammering him, like he dont give a s---, he just had to get that butterfly.
Wonder if he ever got it.
Spud said:
Schaub makes what his sponsors believe he's worth, I don't think that means he's overpaid. His podcast is apparently extremely popular (I believe he's mentioned he makes more from that than he does the UFC) so that might factor into his sponsorship money.
Click to expand...
I am not personally factoring in what he makes outside of the cage. I don't think that should be factored in and it's not even with the Reebok deal in place. I think it should only matter what happens in the cage and who sponsors you in the cage. If sponsors want to pay a fighter what ever in the cage there's nothing wrong with that at all up until now. My agreement with Fosco is when he says that guys who do not sell tickets and do not get ratings, what are they worth?
The job of a fighter (other than fighting) is to promote themselves to push tickets and get people to want to watch them fight and I think that's sort of lost in the whole Reebok/sponsorship argument. Fighters keep saying they are losing money on sponsorships but that could be offset if people actually cared about your fights. It's okay to have a genuine dislike of the sponsorship but it's another thing to complain about sponsors when you have not really given anyone a reason to care about your fights, for example Jose Aldo.
Tum Tum said:
My agreement with Fosco is when he says that guys who do not sell tickets and do not get ratings, what are they worth?
Click to expand...
Exactly, When the female champ(forget her name, the one who lost to JJ) was talking about Paige Vanzant getting a Reebok deal before her. From a logical stand point, PVZ was bringing in more exposure than the person who was the champ.
Should Mighty Mouse get the same as Ronda Rousey? One brings in 4-500k ppv buys, whereas one has the lowest PPVs of any champ in recent history. They're not equal.
Tum Tum said:
In the article the manager for Guida and Browne bring up something similar to what you wrote (for those who don't want to go read the article):
"The barrier for entry to become a manager or agent in this space does not exist," Fosco said. "So when you have zero barrier to entry, a lot of the people are viewed as whatever in the industry. They haven't really done sh*t, but talked their way into some young kid's brain who has a fantasy and capitalized by signing him. To Roberts' point about purses being lower than they could be because UFC fighters could always attain outside in-cage sponsors, Fosco said he believes that the UFC pays its athletes "100 percent" fairly. "These guys who do not sell tickets and do not get ratings with the crop of talent out there, what the f*ck are they worth?" Fosco said. "They're not owed anything. There's this mentality, 'Oh, I'm owed something.' You're given an opportunity. You want to make money? Go knock the f*ck out of people, because I promise Dana will pay you if you go out there and knock the f*ck out of people."
To an extent I agree with Fosco. I am of the belief that most everyone thinks fighters should get paid fairly but with that said I also think it is fair to say that some fighters are overpaid. In the article they mentioned Brendan Schaub and Sara McMann. Both people you could argue are overpaid.
Click to expand...
Awesome statement; really speaks to those who constantly complain about the lowest paid people on the card, "I can't believe so-and-so only made $8k," and saying there should be a higher minimum for UFC fighters. Why? How many PPVs did that new guy sell? Who knows his name? His real pay is that he's being given a chance to make it big on the biggest stage in the sport, and if they also throw $8K at him that's cool too.
Spud said:
Schaub makes what his sponsors believe he's worth, I don't think that means he's overpaid. His podcast is apparently extremely popular (I believe he's mentioned he makes more from that than he does the UFC) so that might factor into his sponsorship money.
Click to expand...
Schaub has said that, but he has also made conflicting statements about how much he gets, so I am taking his comments with a grain of salt.
Brick said:
Awesome statement; really speaks to those who constantly complain about the lowest paid people on the card, "I can't believe so-and-so only made $8k," and saying there should be a higher minimum for UFC fighters. Why? How many PPVs did that new guy sell? Who knows his name? His real pay is that he's being given a chance to make it big on the biggest stage in the sport, and if they also throw $8K at him that's cool too.
Click to expand...
I more or less agree. The reality is that the UFC, and other orgs, pay what they have to. Some feel UFC fighters should not get 8+8, but that is almost certainly the biggest payday that fighter has rec'd. The idea that the UFC should pay far more than Bellator or WSOF, to a new fighter, is silly. Especially when they are already including insurance, something nobody else does.
That said, I personally would like to see that bottom go up a bit. My suggestion has been 10+10, that means a guy going 2-1 would get between 56 and 59k. It would make being a new UFC fighter a little bit easier.
Jak said:
If i'm not mistaken, it's also been pointed out, that the one "benefit" to this, is that the fighters don't have to pay the 20% fee to their managers for finding sponsors.
Click to expand...
Spud said:
I'm not entirely sure what they can do, but meeting up to discuss what can be done is a hell of a lot better than just accepting whatever the UFC chooses to do. I think we'll likely see more fighters see out their contracts & talk to other promotions, not all of them are going to be signed by Bellator but for some fighters it'll make financial sense. And maybe if Bellator get a few big name fighters the UFC might change their tune.
And as Canuck just mentioned, union talk might go on. Obviously it's not going to happen in 1 meeting, but managers each representing multiple fighters could start the ball rolling.
Click to expand...
Doing something is better then nothing, but I don't see managers or agents doing much that won't just benefit them. Why would the managers and agents want a union? That would hurt them, not help. Union talk can only start with the fighters. Make no mistake, they are having this meeting because it is taking money out of their pockets. It is not for the fighters or love of MMA. It is about cash they will no longer be getting because the Reebok deal takes money from them.
Now, those few that are there that have a law degree might start union talk. All the fighters have to do is lawyer up and start the ball going. It will be an uphill battle, but that is how it starts.
As for fighters going else where, I just don't see it. The UFC will pay more then any other org out there. Sure, Bellator might go after a couple big names, but Viacom is not going to sign a bunch of guys making 50+ a fight. They just wont do it. They have already shelled out for Tito, Bonner, Ken, Kimbo. They can't bring more guys on, or if they do they will only be fighting once a year. Where else are the big names going to go? WSOF will for sure not pay big money... Just look at the hit Jon and Paul Harris took going over.
This would be a more important meeting if the fighters where meeting. I think it is a very good thing the fighters were/are vocal about this deal. Look at Meathead, he has already said Dana called him and started talking, as I am sure he has done with others that have not spoke out about the deal. There is zero doubt that the fighters are getting the shaft here, and many have come out and said so. The UFC has always tried to make things right with fighters, and I think they will here too. It might not happen right away, but I will not be shocked to see base pay rise or this deal be along side another that will pay about the same.
The UFC tends to come through and make changes when enough people complain. I could see them making attempts to supplement the reebok deal in some way. Or they could be waiting for the backlash to blow over. Which it will. At the end of the day, the UFC was the only major sports organization that was allowing athletes to promote their own sponsors during broadcasts of the actual sport. And compared to the MLS league minimum of 35,125, UFC pay is fine. Especially considering the fact that you can earn bonuses for performance including pay increases for the next fight after you win. (which I believe is written into the standard contract).
Perhaps it would have been better if the UFC had either waited until the sport grew a bit more and could secure a bigger deal to give the fighters more money, or secure other similar deals with companies like with MusclePharm or Budweiser to be official sponsors and add to the sponsorship money paid to the fighters. If you secure the exact same deal with MP as they did Reebook and now the lowest tier for fighters is 5K and the highest is 80K for champions, that's starting to look a lot better.