Presedential Debate - play by play
- Thread starter Nastycrow
- Start date
I did not get to watch the first few minutes.
Here is what I came in on. Obama was railing against going into the War in the first place. McCain said the next President does not have to make that decision, he has to make the decision of how to leave, when to leave, and how we leave the country.
McCain then says Obama has never held one senate hearing despite being the Chair of the committee on Nato which oversees Afghanistan.
Obama says its because Biden's committee is the one who takes care of that.
Obama then says the surge was a tactic.
McCain explains that Obama does not know the difference between a tactic and a strategy.
Now they are saying predictable things about who voted for what funding.
This round goes to McCain imo. Obama still says he would have voted against the Surge, which makes him a loser on this part.
Obama says he will listen to the Generals.
McCain says Gen. Petraus and Usama Bin Laden have 1 thing in common and that is they both said Iraq is the central front of the war on terror.
Now they are talking about Afghanistan.
Obama says more troops are needed in Afghanistan because the commanders on the ground say they should(I agree with this) and I am betting McCain is going to agree with this portion of it.
Obama then says, surprisingly imo, We can not separate Iraq from Afghanistan.
He then starts bringing up that we have 4 times more troops in Iraq where no one had anything to do with 9/11 nor the war on terror.
He continues: We have to press the afghan government to work for their people(he said it to Karzai apparently). He says we have to deal with the poppi trade(opium) and we have to deal with Al Quada in Pakistan. He says Bush and McCain are at fault because they have not dealt with Pakistan and have given them 10's of millions of dollars.
McCain says he will not repeat the mistake of the Russian Invasion of Afghanistan where after we assisted them in defeating the Russians we "washed our hands" of the situation.
McCain says he is not prepared to cut off aid or threaten Pakistan(he says Obama wants to threaten Pakistan). McCain says Obama wants to launch strikes into Pakistan. McCain says he wants to work with the Pakistani government not attack it.
McCain says he has been to Waziristan(in afghanistan) and it has not been ruled by anyone other then the tribes since the time of Alexander the Great, which is cool.
McCain says we have to use the same stratagy in Afghanistan that Obama condemned in Iraq, which is a troop surge. He says we have to get the cooperation of the people in the area because just sending troops in will not be enough.
McCain - its not just troops, we've added an additional 20thousand. It is a stratagy. He promises he will not publically say he will attack Pakistan but will work with them.
Obama says he did not say he would attack Pakistan he said that if Usama Bin Laden or other top Al Qaida luetinents are in Pakistan and the Pakistanis will not do anything, he will bomb them.
he says he is surprised McCain is taking the stance, since he once sang a song about bombing iran and threatened to make N Korea extinct.
He continues to say if Pakistan refuses to cooperate, we have to make a decision. He then goes into saying that we were being anti-democratic by supporting Pakistan, and the strategy was wrong and that Al Quada is stronger than ever.
McCain says Obama did not understand Pakistan, that it was a failed state. McCain says, let me tell you about this, all this business with bombing Iran, let me tell you about my record. He says he voted against sending the Marines into Lebanon because of the situation, and he says tragically he was right.
He says he supported the first gulf war, and going into Bosnia(when a number of republicans were against going into Bosnia). He says he supported what he did in Kosova because it was the right thing to end the genocide going on there.
He says he wanted to turn the "peace keeping force" in somalia into a peace making force, it was not followed and it failed.
He says he has a record on these things, and that he has the experience or something...missed a part.
He goes into a story about wearing a killed military members bracelet and he promised the woman her sons sacrifice will not be in vein. Another story about a mother whos son was killed. He says they say they do not want defeat. He knows what its like, in vietnam, through no fault of the armies own, how it felt to be defeated and how hard it was to recover. He promises he will win this one and we wont come home in defeat and dishonor.
Obama says he has a bracelet to given from the mother of a sergeant. He says this mother said to him to not let other mothers go through what she is going through. He says no soldier dies in vein and we honor all their service.
He says the question is for hte next pres are we making good judgements about keeping America safe since it is a big step sending troops into battle. HE says his original point is we took our eye off Afghanistan, the folks who attacked us on 9/11, they are still sending out video tapes. He says he does not talk about defeat in Iraq and it is not true McCain is consistently concerned about Afghanistan. He brings up McCain said we will muddle through Iraq.
McCain says with that kind of concern, you would think Obama would have gone to AFghanistan, and says btw in his subcommitte they take up the issues of the subcommittes.
He says the point is, we need a new stratagy in afghanistan and the important thing is if we suffer defeat in Iraq, which Petraus says we will if we accept Obamas timetable for withdrawal....well its bad. He said Obama does not understand there is a connection between Afghanistan and Iraq.
Leher jokes that some how they are even on time despite constantly going over.
ONTO IRAN~
McCain
If Iran gets nukes, it is a something threat to Isreal and the rest of the region. He says we can not allow a second holocaust. What he proposes, after talking with amny foriegn leaders, is to form a league of democracy. He says the Russians are preventing action in the UN security council, so this league will be a group of countries sharing common interests and values etc. and imposing significant meaningful, painful sanctions on the Iranians that would have a beneficient effect since the Iranians have a lousy government and a lousy economy. He says he is convinced ,with the French(haha) the germnans, british etc we can effect Iranian behaviour, but have no doubt, the Iraniana continues on the path to getting nukes and its a worldwide threat and that the Iranians are putting the most lethal IEDs into Iraq and are killing Americans. More about Iran killng Americans in Iraq.
He says Obama said it would be provocative to declare the republican guard in Iran a terroist threat and we shouldnt. We have to stop Iran he says.
Obama:
He believes the Repub guard is a terrorist organization and he has always said so. He says McCain tried to push something through to in the senate. He says the same thing that has strengthened Iran is the war in Iraq. They fund Hezbollah and hamas and because of our policy over the last 8 years in Iraq, Iran is stronger. He says we can not tolerate a nuclear Iran, its a game changer. Because it would threaten israel and create a possible arms race in the middle east. He says we need tougher sanctions but we can not do it without Russia and China. He thinks McCain would agree those 2 countries are not democracies.
He says we need to engage in tough direct diplomacy with Iran. HE says the notion that we are punishing people by not talking with them is not working. Says isolating N Korea and Iran have excelerated their ability to get nuclear weapons.
McCain
Obama said he would, without pre-cpondition sit down with the leaders of Iran(he cant pronounce the leaders name, it was funny) and N Korea etc. He says Irans leader said he will wipe Isreal off the map, but Obama want s to legitimize him by sitting across the table and giving him a forum. He basically is saying its bad and sitting across the table from them legitimized their behaviour.
He says Regan would not sit down with the Russians until something. Nixon would not go to China until Kissinger went many times before hand. McCain says he will sit down with anyone, but there has to be pre-conditions and that we will not legitimize a person like the Iranian Leader. He reiterates that Obamas say without pre-condition.
Obama says ahmadinajed is not the most powerful person in Iran and that he says he will meet with anyone as president if it will make America safe.
he says he will not invite them over for tea, and says his meeting with no pre-conditions means sitting down with them only if they do what he says they should do.....he says there is a difference between pre-conditions and preperation
He says he was called naive when he called for exploring contacts with Iran but now Bush has just sent someone to talk to Iran about Nukes.
He says N Korea was part of the axis of evil and the administration said we would not deal with them and since then they sped up their building of nukes. He says once we re-engaged, because the bush admiinnstration reversed course, we made progress, but now we are seeing it on shaky ground. He makes a "general point"(his words) that Senator McCains advisors see this as an important point and that McCain said he would not meet with the Prime Minister of Spain because he is not sure the yare allied with us, and Spain is a Nato ally.
McCain makes some joke.
Says Kissinger did not say there should be face-to-face meetings between president of the u.s. and Iran but lower level meetings, which McCain says this is what he encouraged. He says Obama does not understand that without pre-condition you sit down with someone who called Israel a stinking corpse and you legitmize those kinds of comments and its not just naive, but dangerous. He says they have a fundamental difference of opinion, and says as far as N Korea, the most opressive government on earth possibly, and that the sec of state went to N Korea and that the Koreaons have broken every single agreement put in place.
He says Regan did not, and Obama said we should twice, sit down without pre-condition.
Obama says Mccain says that no one is talking about meeting with people with our "preperation" or low level meetings and that Kissinger DId say we should talk without pre-conditions.
He says the bush admin has found it does not work and being silent when it comes to our enemies is wrong and sititng with the Iranian leader while he said negative things we will not let him talk about that sort of stuff.
McCain says ; so let me get this traight, Ahmadinjead will say we want to wipe isreal off the earth, and we will say what, no your not? Thats ridiclious. He sayd kissinger would be itnerested in this since he known him for 30 years, and he never said presidents should meet face to face.
Obama saysa that not what he said about it.
RUSSIAN!
Leher asks if htey are a potential partner or enemy etc.
Obama says the actions in Georgia are unacceptable and that the nedxt presidnet says they ahve to follow the 6-point cease fire, that we have a unified alliance(assuming with nato) and that we let the russians know they can not be a 21st super power and act like a 20th century dictatorship and we have to support the fledling democracies in the region, the chezchs poles georgians etc.
We have to insist Georgie and Ukraine are free to join Nato if they meet the requirements(this surprised me as a side note)
He says we can not return to a cold war posture, which is nuclear proliferation. He says they have tons of nukes and he is working with a republican in the senate to deal with the loose nukes in the area. He says the president has to be clear that we do not deal with russian by stariong into his eyes and seeing his soul, but it demands a sharp response something i missed it.
McCain - Interested to Obamas reaction to Georiga, Obamas first statement was both sides were showing strength. He said he did not understand Russia ncommitted a serious agression against Goergia.
He says Russia is not a KGB aparature run government, he looked into Putins eyes and saw three letters K G B and thier agression in Georgia is not acceptable. He knows we will not go back to the cold war, it wont happen, but we need to bolster our allies. It was not a problem with jsut goergia nad russia it was about energy, the pipeline running through that country.
Not accidental that the presidents of the surrounding countrties flew to Georgia, where McCain has been many times, to show solidarity with them and to express concern with the Russian threat to regain the russian empire.
He says the Russians must understand we the U.S. wil support the inclusion of ukraine and Georgia into Natio and that the russians are in violation of the cease fire. He says he went there once, in Georgia Territory and saw a big picture of Putin that said "putin our president" and it was clear about russians intentions towards georgia.
He says we want to work with the Russians but we have a right to expect them to behave properly and with internation boundries blah blah. He says to watch Ukraine, the crimea and the breakdown of the political process in Ukraine is a problem.
He says lets make sure the Ukraininans we understand that we are their ally.
Obama says he disagrees with the notion that we did not forcefully object to Russian going into Georgia, he said he immediatly said it was objectionable and illegal and wanted a cessation of the violence because of the strain on Georgia. He says he was the first to say we needed to rebuild the Georgian Economy. He says the russians wanted to weaken them and replace Georgians with a russian puppet.
He says 2 things are important with Russian. He says foresight is important, he says in April he warned the administration that there were Russian Peace Keepers in Georgia and it made no sense.
Putin is feeling powerful because of energy dollars. We, one of the biggest consumers, must have an energy stratagy to not just deal with Russia but many of the states we talked about, iran, venezuela etc. He says that includes off-shore drilling(doh) He says though, we can no drill our way out of the problem. We have to turn to solar, wind, bio-diesal ANd NUCLEAR ENERGY( this surprises me to) and that he has a 10 year plan to do it. he says McCain has voted 23 times against bio-diseal and alternative energy. Says its as important as national security etc.
Says Obama is for nuclear, but against reprocessing, which means he cant be for nuclear energy.
Cross-talk blah blah.
McCain supproted something in 1990 when a lot of ppl did not, and it was a key legislation to put us on the road of eliminating nuclear waste.
Obama says he has never objected to nuclear waste.......
McCain says he voted for alternate fuel.
Sorry if this was stated but it made me head tilt like a puppy because I was shocked to disbelief.
McCain (paraphrasing): Obama said we should bomb Pakistan. You can't just say that. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
This is obviously not an exact quote and we all know there are ops we will deny responsibility for rep or dem. But I'm pretty sure I heard him say on record that it happens...
What is the likliehood of another 9/11
McCain
I think it is much less than 9/11. We are a safer nation but a long way from being totally safe. He says he worked across the isle, talks about him and libermann talking about needing a comission to investigate 9/11 find out the problem and fix it, but they were opposed by the adminstration, another difference he says with bush/ He says they are happy to say they have written into law most of the 9/11 comission recomendations. He is proud of being bi-partisan.
He says we have a long way to go but need to never torture prisoners and also to make sure our intelligence is continually improving and are better. We have to work closer with our allies, he knows our allies and can work closley with them. He thinks America is safer today since 9/11 but we have a long way to go. He said we had a big reorganization of government with the 9/11 comission and the people in the new agencies are doing a great job but we have a long way to go before declaring America safe and doing a better job on our borders as well.
Obama -
We are safer in some ways. We poured a lot of money into airports, done work securing targets, we have a long way to go. We have not done enough with transit, ports, and the biggest threat we face is not a nculear missle coming over the skies, its in a suitcase and this is why nuclear proliferation is so important, the biggst threat to the U.S. is terrorists getting a weapon.
He says we need missle defense because of Iran and N Korea and we are spending billions on it, but he also believes that we are only spending a few hundered million on proliferation we are making a mistake. We need to focus Al quaida. We can not just be focused on Iraq, we have to go to the root cause of pakistan and afghanistan. We need our allies ocoperation.
It is important for us to understand that the way we are preceived in the war will go a long way to how we can get peopel to help us and restore our standing in the world. We are less respected then we were 54 and 8 years ago. He says this is the greatest countries in the world, gives McCain credit on the Torture issue, but we have a lot of work to do to restore the United States place in the world and its image etc.
McCain - in the case of Missle defense, Obama says it has to be "proven" he says SFi was not "proven but was a major part in ending the cold war. He says Obama does not get it that if we fail in Iraq, it encourages Al Quada and they will establish a base. If we follow his plan to withdraw in defeat according to every military expect it will lead to compelte loss and loss of all the sacrificed of american blood and treasure, if we follow his plan to ahve specific dates of withdrawl regardless of conditions on the ground and patreaus says we can not do what Obama wants us to do. americans will judge weather its the right path or the wrong path and who will be the president of the U.S.
Obama - over the last 8years thia dministration with McCain has been soley focused on Iraq, its been their priority and where all our resources go. In the meantime Bin Laden has not been captured or killed, al aquida is resurfacing. We are borrwing billions of dollars in China, and htey are active in Latin America, Asian, Africa, and their conspicious of their presence is mathced by our absense.
Look at our economy, we are now spending 10 billion or more every month, and that means we can not provide health care to people who need it or invest in science and technology to remain competetive. No country on earth has seen its economy decline and maintined its militayr security.
Our VA system is messed up, he meets veterans who cant get disability payments. We have to put our chips in and no one is talking about losing the war. He says the next president needs a braoder stratigic vision missing hte last 8 years.
McCain - I been involved in every national security in the last 20 years, there is advantage in knowledge and experience and believes Obama does not have the judgement, and has proven it with his reaction to Russian.
He says we seen this before, i nthe Bush adminstrations sticking to a failed stratagy until the surge and Obama is the asme way by not admitting hte surge has succedded.
he says he knows the vets well and that we know hbe will take care of us well...blah blah etc.
He syas he has the ability and the knowledge to keep the country safe and secure with prosperity and peace and security is hte major challenge. He says he needs no on the job training and he is ready to go on right now.
Obama says hie father came from kenya wher ehe got his name. In the 60's his dad wrote letters to come to the US for school because this was the only place wher eyou can make it if you try because of the ideals and values.
He says no one can say our standing in the world, the way children look at the U.S. is the same. He says part of what we need to do, which is part of our judgement, is to send a message t othe World that we will invest in education, in issues that relate to how ordinary people live out their dreams and that is something he will be committed to as president.
Mccain - when I came home from veitnam i saw vets being badly treated. He embarked on an effort, in a bi-partisan way to get that fixed and to normalize relations with vietnam
He says as president he knows how to deal with the adversaries and etc. and he has the experience to do it.
Hurrah for debating.
This was a fantastic debate. I have an increased respect for Obama and of course I have a lot of respect for McCain.
I believe McCain did much better at pointing out the negative things that Obama has said. I also think Obama made 2 major gaffs.
1.He said he would meet with no pre-conditions with Iran, but that did not meen meeting them without preperation, he said meeting with them without pre-conditions meant they had to do what we said they had to do before we met with them. That made little sense. He also failed to make his case about Kissinger saying what he was saying.
2.He said he warned the administration about the Russian Peacekeepers in Georgia in April. It just sounded a little silly. He could not deny what he said about Georgia/Russia when the Russians invaded.
Obama did some good things, I dont think he did as well as he would have wanted in connecting McCain to the Bush administration.
As I said, I think Obama did good considering. I was impressed. I think McCain won though.
They both did a decent job at debating. Obama's foreign policy answers resonated with me more than McCain's - especially his desire to get tough with Pakistan. I wish they would have used the correct term for Iran's elite force - The Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. not the Republican Guard (that was Iraq).
I also thought it was interesting that McCain said he's going to give everyone a 5K tax credit. Hmmm...sounds suspiciously like wealth redistribution.
bp said:
Preconditions. That came up frequently. Define it.
Click to expand...
It means that we'd demand some action be taken by the nation of interest before we agree to any diplomatic relations. So here's the difference:
With Preconditions: Iran, we're not going to have diplomatic contact with you on any level until you stop enriching uranium first.
Without Preconditions: Iran, we'll send lower level diplomats, if nothing else, to explain what's going to happen if you don't stop enriching uranium.
twsjajms said:
He also failed to make his case about Kissinger saying what he was saying.
Click to expand...
I think this is the Kissinger comment he was referring to. It was made during a forum a couple of weeks ago:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/20/se.01.html
KISSINGER: Well, I am in favor of negotiating with Iran. And one utility of negotiation is to put before Iran our vision of a Middle East, of a stable Middle East, and our notion on nuclear proliferation at a high enough level so that they have to study it. And, therefore, I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level so that we -- we know we're dealing with authentic...
SESNO: Put at a very high level right out of the box?
KISSINGER: Initially, yes. And I always believed that the best way to begin a negotiation is to tell the other side exactly what you have in mind and what you are -- what the outcome is that you're trying to achieve so that they have something that they can react to.
Now, the permanent members of the Security Council, plus Japan and Germany, have all said nuclear weapons in Iran are unacceptable. They've never explained what they mean by this. So if we go into a negotiation, we ought to have a clear understanding of what is it we're trying to prevent. What is it going to do if we can't achieve what we're talking about?
But I do not believe that we can make conditions for the opening of negotiations. We ought, however, to be very clear about the content of negotiations and work it out with other countries and with our own government."
Archean_Life said:
bp said:
Preconditions. That came up frequently. Define it.
Click to expand...
It means that we'd demand some action be taken by the nation of interest before we agree to any diplomatic relations. So here's the difference:
With Preconditions: Iran, we're not going to have diplomatic contact with you on any level until you stop enriching uranium first.
Without Preconditions: Iran, we'll send lower level diplomats, if nothing else, to explain what's going to happen if you don't stop enriching uranium.
Click to expand...
Obama made a slip up way back in the Democratic debates. He said he would meet without pre-conditions, when at the time, everyone, including hillary clinton on the same stage, had said we need to set conditions by first sending lower level diplomats over.
We all know Obama would not just invite Iran over for dinner. However, he made a slip of the tongue, which is forcing him and his people to spin the meaning of "preconditions". This combined with a lot of other little slip ups like that saying he would still not support the surge despite admitting it is working, is a problem Obama has created himself when it really was something easily avoided.
twsjajms said:
... However, he made a slip of the tongue, which is forcing him and his people to spin the meaning of "preconditions".
Click to expand...
The way I see it, Obama was talking specifically about the conditions that the Bush administration placed on certain countries to act before they would negotiate - and these other politicians weren't talking about that at all. twsjajms, I'm not trying to be a smart*ss or confrontational,I'm just asking: do you not acknowledge that the Bush administration (rightly or wrongly) placed preconditions on certain countries to make concessions or take specific actions before even low level diplomats would be allowed to meet? Preconditions sounds like the perfect word to describe that. What word would you use?
Archean_Life said:
twsjajms said:
... However, he made a slip of the tongue, which is forcing him and his people to spin the meaning of "preconditions".
Click to expand...
The way I see it, Obama was talking specifically about the conditions that the Bush administration placed on certain countries to act before they would negotiate - and these other politicians weren't talking about that at all. twsjajms, I'm not trying to be a smart*ss or confrontational,I'm just asking: do you not acknowledge that the Bush administration (rightly or wrongly) placed preconditions on certain countries to make concessions or take specific actions before even low level diplomats would be allowed to meet? Preconditions sounds like the perfect word to describe that. What word would you use?
Click to expand...
No I would not disagree with your assessment about the Bush administration.
Here is the question and answer that is causing this mini debate between us though:
"In 1982, Anwar Sadat traveled to Israel, a trip that resulted in a peace agreement that has lasted ever since. In the spirit of that type of bold leadership, would you be willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, in order to bridge the gap that divides our countries?"
Obama took the question first. He replied,
"I would. And the reason is this, that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them -- which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration -- is ridiculous. Now, Ronald Reagan and Democratic presidents like JFK constantly spoke to Soviet Union at a time when Ronald Reagan called them an evil empire. And the reason is because they understood that we may not trust them and they may pose an extraordinary danger to this country, but we had the obligation to find areas where we can potentially move forward. "
Here was is answer tonight.
OBAMA: "Look, I mean, Senator McCain keeps on using this example that suddenly the president would just meet with somebody without doing any preparation, without having low-level talks. Nobody's been talking about that, and Senator McCain knows it. This is a mischaracterization of my position.
When we talk about preconditions -- and Henry Kissinger did say we should have contacts without preconditions -- the idea is that we do not expect to solve every problem before we initiate talks.
And, you know, the Bush administration has come to recognize that it hasn't worked, this notion that we are simply silent when it comes to our enemies. And the notion that we would sit with Ahmadinejad and not say anything while he's spewing his nonsense and his vile comments is ridiculous. Nobody is even talking about that."
I'm really not disagreeing with what you or Obama are actually saying. I agree. I actually think we should talk to these countries. I am just pointing out he slipped up in the democratic debate, and it is coming back to haunt him a little bit now. Believe me, I think if McCain had made a similar gaff or serious of gaffs the exact same thing would happen to him to.
I think Obama was particularly effective in referencing McCains stupid little "bomb iran" to the tune of barbara ann refrain. This was McCains fault for making a stupid little gaff. The problem is Obama also has the question of experience lingering over his head, and a gaff like this, it is easy to throw into question his credentials.