Question about Liddell vs Evans Fight.
- Thread starter Nastycrow
- Start date
Marauder said:
Because the mystique surrounding Chuck was still semi-present. Even after Jackson and Jardine, people still thought that Rashad had a snowballs chance in beating the Iceman, let alone knocking him out cold! Jackson and Rua didn't even do that to him!
Click to expand...
Rua is a "consistent" fighter who's strength and explosiveness is steady, thus he's least likely to explode and cause surprise knockouts. Rashad is the exact opposite of that.
I still admit that Rua in his prime can beat Rashad though. If he could've lined up first before Machida did he could've gotten that belt.
Lasse said:
Marauder said:
Because the mystique surrounding Chuck was still semi-present. Even after Jackson and Jardine, people still thought that Rashad had a snowballs chance in beating the Iceman, let alone knocking him out cold! Jackson and Rua didn't even do that to him!
Click to expand...
Rua is a "consistent" fighter who's strength and explosiveness is steady, thus he's least likely to explode and cause surprise knockouts. Rashad is the exact opposite of that.
I still admit that Rua in his prime can beat Rashad though. If he could've lined up first before Machida did he could've gotten that belt.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that you weren't at all surprised by Rashad KO Liddell? I find that very difficult to believe. Anyway, why is this relevant one year later while Chuck is in the twilight of his career?
Marauder said:
I still admit that Rua in his prime can beat Rashad though. If he could've lined up first before Machida did he could've gotten that belt.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that you weren't at all surprised by Rashad KO Liddell? I find that very difficult to believe. Anyway, why is this relevant one year later while Chuck is in the twilight of his career?[/quote]I just wondered why the knockout over Chuck Liddell was considered to be that much surprising than Evans other fights.
Lasse said:
Marauder said:
I still admit that Rua in his prime can beat Rashad though. If he could've lined up first before Machida did he could've gotten that belt.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that you weren't at all surprised by Rashad KO Liddell? I find that very difficult to believe. Anyway, why is this relevant one year later while Chuck is in the twilight of his career?
Click to expand...
I just wondered why the knockout over Chuck Liddell was considered to be that much surprising than Evans other fights.[/quote]
Well to each his own, but personally I don't like to ponder about what if'/could of/should have. This is just like saying Bruce Lee could beat (insert name here)...we will never know!
But hey, whatever blows your hair back pal!
Lasse said:
Marauder said:
I still admit that Rua in his prime can beat Rashad though. If he could've lined up first before Machida did he could've gotten that belt.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that you weren't at all surprised by Rashad KO Liddell? I find that very difficult to believe. Anyway, why is this relevant one year later while Chuck is in the twilight of his career?
Click to expand...
I just wondered why the knockout over Chuck Liddell was considered to be that much surprising than Evans other fights
.[/quote]
I'll answer that as soon as I find someone who translates Tard talk.
Marauder said:
Because the mystique surrounding Chuck was still semi-present. Even after Jackson and Jardine, people still thought that Rashad had a snowballs chance in beating the Iceman, let alone knocking him out cold! Jackson and Rua didn't even do that to him!
Click to expand...
Let's not forget, everyone at the time though that Rashad was just like Tito and didn't have standup that could compete with Liddell's. He was coming off a draw to Tito in which he lost two rounds, and an unimpressive win against Bisping who doesn't really offer much.
What is up with all the retarded threads lately?
BadassCoffee said:
Marauder said:
Because the mystique surrounding Chuck was still semi-present. Even after Jackson and Jardine, people still thought that Rashad had a snowballs chance in beating the Iceman, let alone knocking him out cold! Jackson and Rua didn't even do that to him!
Click to expand...
Let's not forget, everyone at the time though that Rashad was just like Tito and didn't have standup that could compete with Liddell's. He was coming off a draw to Tito in which he lost two rounds, and an unimpressive win against Bisping who doesn't really offer much.
What is up with all the retarded threads lately?
Click to expand...
+1 x 10! Super retarded thread might I add
Lasse said:
Rashad Evans would massare Chuck Liddell in his prime in 2mins flat imo.
Click to expand...
one problem with that statement that i see, is Chuck was well past his prime when they did Fight and Chuck won the first round, and was winning the second round before he got caught. Thats interesting.
I don't know that Rashad would have massacred Chuck in his prime, but he probably could have actually used his wrestling and outmuscled Chuck to a decision. Who knows, it's a moot point. Comparing 2008/2009 Rashad and 2006/2007 Chuck is just silly.
The reason the fight was surprising is that nobody really knew that Rashad possessed that much power in his fists until that point.
BaconBits said:
I don't know that Rashad would have massacred Chuck in his prime, but he probably could have actually used his wrestling and outmuscled Chuck to a decision. Who knows, it's a moot point. Comparing 2008/2009 Rashad and 2006/2007 Chuck is just silly.
The reason the fight was surprising is that nobody really knew that Rashad possessed that much power in his fists until that point.
Click to expand...
Hmm......it's very hard to call fights but i'm pretty sure Rashad's wrestling wouldn't have won him a fight against Liddell
Shaun said:
BaconBits said:
I don't know that Rashad would have massacred Chuck in his prime, but he probably could have actually used his wrestling and outmuscled Chuck to a decision. Who knows, it's a moot point. Comparing 2008/2009 Rashad and 2006/2007 Chuck is just silly.
The reason the fight was surprising is that nobody really knew that Rashad possessed that much power in his fists until that point.
Click to expand...
Hmm......it's very hard to call fights but i'm pretty sure Rashad's wrestling wouldn't have won him a fight against Liddell
Click to expand...
Nope. Sean Salmon outwrestled Rashad. A lot is made about being a D 1 wrestler, when in fact, Evans was like 45-30 or something at Michigan State. Dominant wrestlers lose less than 20 in their career, fewer and fewer as they gain experience. Elite level guys might lose 3-4 a year, IF THAT. Brock lost 5 matches in 4 years. Stephen Neal was like 150-10 for his career. Kerry McCoy had an 88 match win streak at Penn State and won 131 of his last 132 matches.
Anyways, I remember watching Evans wrestle at the Big Ten championships. He was decent, for sure. He beat Greg Jones, so that's quite an accomplishment. Jones was three years behind Evans at the time, but only 2-3 guys beat him, period. So it's not like he sucked... but he wasn't dominant, either. His wrestling prowess is really overrated in MMA. Which is fine, since they obviously have to use any accomplishments you have to promote you when you're just starting out. But, I don't see how at any point in his career Rashad could have used his wrestling to dominate Chuck Liddell... no way. Not in MMA. Straight up wrestling, maybe. But even then I doubt it. He never had that aggressive attack style you'd need to get past Chucks TDD. Randy, as accomplished as he is and as well suited to MMA as his style is, he couldn't even keep Chuck down even when he WAS able to take it there.
BTW, I'm a huge Rashad fan. Big fan of Rampage too, so I'm kinda glad their fight is off for now. As dominant as Machida was against Evans, I still think other than Shogun he's the only LHW with a legitimate shot at beating him. As well respected as Jackson is for game planning and as easy to coach as Rashad is following a game plan, I think even the great Greg Jackson totally underestimated the speed and movement of Lyoto Machida. A different game plan, though, and I think Rashad does pose a legitimate risk to Machida. A lot of people are talking about Evans needing to use his wrestling, etc..etc.. but I think that's just the easy answer. Evan's problem was that as quick as his hands are, his punches come from too far away for a guy like Machida. He can land those against Chuck and Forrest, and in a rematch with Tito or Bisping I bet either will get KTFO second time around, but Machida's anticipation and "elusiveness", for lack of a better term, and used with utmost respect not as a slur, are far too advanced for a big wind up right hand to have even a hope of landing... outside of the proverbial "lucky" punch.
That being said, I can't see Rashads wrestling being near good enough to deal with Machida's mastery of just about every discipline there is. I mean, he has Sumo accomplishments that are far more impressive than being a D 1 wrestler. No, I think Evans' best shot still lies with his striking.... it's the patience and countering a counter striker he has to master. He has to figure out how to land his strikes against a faster, quicker and overall more talented fighter. Doesn't that sound wicked easy? :lol:
The thing is, Rashad has the power in spades to KO ANY one! But how to land those strikes on the invisible man, that's the pressing concern he and Jackson have to figure out. IMO, anyways.
this thread makes no sense, but i will say that I think people give rashad too much credit. he barely beat a 205 bisping, couldn't beat tito, and fought all cans before that. One KO win over chuck and everyone hopped on the bandwagon. I'm glad machida exposed him and knocked him out, because i think the hype was going to his head as well.
winnerbyko said:
this thread makes no sense, but i will say that I think people give rashad too much credit. he barely beat a 205 bisping, couldn't beat tito, and fought all cans before that. One KO win over chuck and everyone hopped on the bandwagon. I'm glad machida exposed him and knocked him out, because i think the hype was going to his head as well.
Click to expand...
I think u r rite, his head blew up over that ko win against (the well past prime) Liddell! Like my post early on in this thread, I don't usely call fights based on skill but going back and looking at some old Liddell fights and some now day Rashad fights, I think in Liddell's prime he would do to Rashad what Rashad did 2 him! But that's just what i think!
JunkieDog said:
Nope. Sean Salmon outwrestled Rashad. A lot is made about being a D 1 wrestler, when in fact, Evans was like 45-30 or something at Michigan State. Dominant wrestlers lose less than 20 in their career, fewer and fewer as they gain experience. Elite level guys might lose 3-4 a year, IF THAT. Brock lost 5 matches in 4 years. Stephen Neal was like 150-10 for his career. Kerry McCoy had an 88 match win streak at Penn State and won 131 of his last 132 matches.
Anyways, I remember watching Evans wrestle at the Big Ten championships. He was decent, for sure. He beat Greg Jones, so that's quite an accomplishment. Jones was three years behind Evans at the time, but only 2-3 guys beat him, period. So it's not like he sucked... but he wasn't dominant, either. His wrestling prowess is really overrated in MMA. Which is fine, since they obviously have to use any accomplishments you have to promote you when you're just starting out. But, I don't see how at any point in his career Rashad could have used his wrestling to dominate Chuck Liddell... no way. Not in MMA. Straight up wrestling, maybe. But even then I doubt it. He never had that aggressive attack style you'd need to get past Chucks TDD. Randy, as accomplished as he is and as well suited to MMA as his style is, he couldn't even keep Chuck down even when he WAS able to take it there.
BTW, I'm a huge Rashad fan. Big fan of Rampage too, so I'm kinda glad their fight is off for now. As dominant as Machida was against Evans, I still think other than Shogun he's the only LHW with a legitimate shot at beating him. As well respected as Jackson is for game planning and as easy to coach as Rashad is following a game plan, I think even the great Greg Jackson totally underestimated the speed and movement of Lyoto Machida. A different game plan, though, and I think Rashad does pose a legitimate risk to Machida. A lot of people are talking about Evans needing to use his wrestling, etc..etc.. but I think that's just the easy answer. Evan's problem was that as quick as his hands are, his punches come from too far away for a guy like Machida. He can land those against Chuck and Forrest, and in a rematch with Tito or Bisping I bet either will get KTFO second time around, but Machida's anticipation and "elusiveness", for lack of a better term, and used with utmost respect not as a slur, are far too advanced for a big wind up right hand to have even a hope of landing... outside of the proverbial "lucky" punch.
That being said, I can't see Rashads wrestling being near good enough to deal with Machida's mastery of just about every discipline there is. I mean, he has Sumo accomplishments that are far more impressive than being a D 1 wrestler. No, I think Evans' best shot still lies with his striking.... it's the patience and countering a counter striker he has to master. He has to figure out how to land his strikes against a faster, quicker and overall more talented fighter. Doesn't that sound wicked easy? :lol:
The thing is, Rashad has the power in spades to KO ANY one! But how to land those strikes on the invisible man, that's the pressing concern he and Jackson have to figure out. IMO, anyways.
Click to expand...
I think you might have overstated your case against Evans and his wrestling ability. Being a Division 1 wrestler is quite an accomplishment even if you're not a champion or near-champion. Sometimes we forget that guys like Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, and Matt Hughes didn't exactly have the same elite records that Josh Koscheck or Brock Lesnar had in college. And Georges St-Pierre didn't even wrestle, yet he has become the best wrestler in mixed martial arts arguably.
It's more about how fighters are able to transition their wrestling skills into the mixed martial arts game. When Liddell was dominant, he used his wrestling skills, not by taking people down, but by always keeping people in the position he wanted them. Brandon Vera uses his wrestling skills to lock people up for his Muay Thai strikes. It's all about adapting the skills.