Tito Ortiz is the Most Important Fighter in UFC/MMA History -- reasonably claim?
- Thread starter Nastycrow
- Start date
Reckin007 said:
Nope. It's what people see that matters.
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Chuck beat Tito, so that negates the facts that Tito carried the sport/promotion through and out of the 'dark ages'? That Tito brought Chuck into the game? That Tito was the Star that the Fertitta's were banking on? That Tito gave Dana a job? That Tito VS Ken was such a key rivalry?
CoffeeAndBeer said:
Go ahead then... make the claim that Stephan Bonnar or Forrest Griffin is the most important individual fighter in MMA/UFC history. Go ahead.
But make sure you juxtapose that with the fact that the reality show was on Spike TV, feeding MMA into millions of homes, week after week after, featuring many personalities and story-lines, etc., and not just Bonnar, or not just Forrest.
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Tito deserves a lot of respect for what he did for the sport. Let's just not pretend that people wouldn't have tuned him without him. There were a lot of factors that led MMA to gaining the popularity it has today but Tito is certainly not at the forefront of that. I believe that many hardcore fans can attest to the fact that while Tito was an extremely enticing individual to watch there was a lot more to it than that.
CoffeeAndBeer said:
Chuck beat Tito, so that negates the facts that Tito carried the sport/promotion through and out of the 'dark ages'? That Tito brought Chuck into the game? That Tito gave Dana a job? That Tito VS Ken was such a key rivalry?
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The whole 'dark ages' thing only exists because there was eventually a "light ages" but there's no way you can attribute that to Ortiz. I don't want to discredit where Tito sits as a pioneer, but to say he is
the
most important is absurd. He only brings fans to Bellator because of his brashness and excitement from past years with Couture/Liddell.
CoffeeAndBeer said:
Go ahead then... make the claim that Stephan Bonnar, or Forrest Griffin, is the most important individual fighter in MMA/UFC history. Go ahead.
But make sure you juxtapose that with the fact that the reality show was on Spike TV, feeding MMA into millions of homes, week after week after, featuring many personalities and story-lines, etc., and not just Bonnar, or not just Forrest.
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What I'm saying is that when Tito was the headliner the UFC was still going down the drain and if he wasn't the champ someone else would have been, it didn't change the UFCs situation,the success of TUF did.
The most important person for me is Rorion Gracie, he moved to the USA and helped found the UFC. If you want a fighter then it's Royce and yes it could have easily have been any number of Gracies instead of Royce in UFC 1 but it wasn't. Just as easily anyone could have been champ instead of Tito and it still would have declined till the success of TUF.
MMAfanaticZA said:
What I'm saying is that when Tito was the headliner the UFC was still going down the drain and if he wasn't the champ someone else would have been, it didn't change the UFCs situation,the success of TUF did.
The most important person for me is Rorion Gracie, he moved to the USA and helped found the UFC. If you want a fighter then it's Royce and yes it could have easily have been any number of Gracies instead of Royce in UFC 1 but it wasn't. Just as easily anyone could have been champ instead of Tito and it still would have declined till the success of TUF.
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That's all hindsight nonsense. No one ever watched the UFC/MMA for any Gracie.
Reckin007 said:
That's all hindsight nonsense. No one ever watched the UFC/MMA for any Gracie.
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I remember UFC 1 like it was just yday and watching Royce dominate made me an instant fan. There's no denying he helped get the ball rolling for MMA. I don't buy that Tito brought the UFC out of the dark ages, the success of TUF did.
MMAfanaticZA said:
What I'm saying is that when Tito was the headliner the UFC was still going down the drain and if he wasn't the champ someone else would have been, it didn't change the UFCs situation,the success of TUF did.
The most important person for me is Rorion Gracie, he moved to the USA and helped found the UFC. If you want a fighter then it's Royce and yes it could have easily have been any number of Gracies instead of Royce in UFC 1 but it wasn't. Just as easily anyone could have been champ instead of Tito and it still would have declined till the success of TUF.
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There was only one Tito Ortiz. That's inherent to the point. Tito headlined nearly HALF of all UFC PPV EVENTS in a very critical time. His fight with Ken doubled or tripled previous recent PPVs.
Just being 'champ' doesn't assure you being a true Star.
There's only one Conor McGregor.... or can Joseph Duffy easily replace him?
Tito was the UFC's biggest (only?) Star.
And this was all during the era when MMA was
actively
being run off of TV!
Reckin007 said:
The whole 'dark ages' thing only exists because there was eventually a "light ages" but there's no way you can attribute that to Ortiz. I don't want to discredit where Tito sits as a pioneer, but to say he is
the
most important is absurd. He only brings fans to Bellator because of his brashness and excitement from past years with Couture/Liddell.
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Absurd?? Really.
He was not just a big name, once upon a time. What distinguishes Tito is that he was a main figure in many key moments/involving critical relationships.
Bellator? There are lots of big names that could draw fans to Bellator like Tito is/has, but the affect he's having is nothing compared to what he meant to the whole of MMA (and the UFC) back during his time.
CoffeeAndBeer said:
Tito Ortiz is the
most important fighter
in MMA/UFC history -- Reasonable* Claim?
No UFC 40/Tito vs Ken Rivalry
, the event that likely saved the UFC at another critical moment.
The UFC/Zuffa was losing money, the Fertitta's might have been ready to sell (or fold). A stay of execution and/or a springboard, the success of UFC 40 was huge for the future of the UFC/MMA.
"When that show [UFC 40] happened, I honestly felt like it was going to make it. Throughout the years, things were happening, and everything always looked bleak. It always looked like, this is it, this is going to be the last time. This is going to be the last year. But, when I was standing in the Octagon at UFC 40, I remember standing there before the Ortiz/Shamrock fight and looking around. The energy of that fight, it was phenomenal, and it was the first time I honestly said, it’s going to make it." -
Big John McCarthy
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UFC 40 was critical to the success of the UFC. It was a stacked card and it delivered with zero decisions and non-stop excitement. Tito v. Ken was the headliner and they generated a ton of publicity for the event. Can't forget that Chuck v. Babalu and Hughes v. Castillo were big fights that delivered on the card.
It is a reasonable claim, but you could make an argument for Couture, Liddell and Hughes .
CoffeeAndBeer said:
Well unless you're saying it's a "tie" then
Yes
, Yes there has to be one individual that is thee "most" important.
That's the exercise here, in effect, making a decision as to who is the single most important fighter in UFC/MMA history.
Tito and Royce tied?
I don't want to diminish what Royce Gracie meant to our sport by saying this, but for this context... Royce, the individual, was
not as important as
Gracie Jiu Jitsu itself
was. Royce was only a representative of the family's art. That is what (not who) the attraction was in those early UFC's; the technique over the individual. If it wasn't Royce, it would have been Rickson. And that interchangeability diffuses Royce's importance.
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I guess my point is this. There were a few fighters that helped sustain MMA and the UFC. Ken Shamrock was as important to early UFC as Tito was. The UFC was important in simply turning from a tough man competition to something more. Wanderlei was as important to giving a world wide face to MMA. and so on...
But Gracie was different. He was the catalyst. He was the Ralph Machio from the Karate Kid that started it. That got the world talking. That made BJJ trump all other fighting disciplines. That made it so the smallest guy was the toughest guy.
It's what made the UFC relatable to the common person. Gracie wasn't much bigger than any of us, and in many cases smaller, but he won with some crazy new style.
By the same token, there were other big faces and jacked up fighters at the same time. None of them were the catalyst though.
I'm a Tito fan, always have been. But even my earliest memories of him aren't any more important than my earliest memories of Ken Shamrock. Same with my earliest moments of CroCop and Wandlerei and Sakuraba in Japan. They all intertwined to being so important.
Which is why Tito can't be the most important.
Gracie was the catalyst of the every man, he was the catalyst of BJJ. At the same time, for the reason YOU mention, I also don't consider him the most important because while he was the catalyst, he also needed the UFC and he also needed the other stars to sustain the growth after him.
As far as this argument goes, I don't think it's wrong to claim this. Having him around to run his mouth helped to make both Couture and Chuck who they are today. Not to mention he got us to care again about Forest, he's made us talk about Bellator more and he stayed relevant for so long. I would argue that Chuck (or Couture or Forrest) was probably the most important, but this claim is legit.
Also, he saved us all from a Bader title shot for awhile... bonus points for that
No, he's not.
Most of the positions put forth elevating Tito to MIFOAT are distorted, giving credit where none is due and in others, over-crediting Ortiz.
That's not to say he isn't a part; he's a big part, but never a lynchpin or irreplaceable cog, imo.
Spoken as a fan of Ortiz.
CoffeeAndBeer said:
There was only one Tito Ortiz. That's inherent to the point. Tito headlined nearly HALF of all UFC PPV EVENTS in a very critical time. His fight with Ken doubled or tripled previous recent PPVs.
Just being 'champ' doesn't assure you being a true Star.
There's only one Conor McGregor.... or can Joseph Duffy easily replace him?
Tito was the UFC's biggest (only?) Star.
And this was all during the era when MMA was
actively
being run off of TV!
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Yea don't give any credit to what Ken Shamrock brought to the table, seeing as how he had just returned from the WWF during the attitude era where he was seen on tv every week by 10 million people...
yea who cares about that right
in fact I had not really heard about the UFC or MMA until SHamrock appeared as the World Most Dangerous man and made me go out and rent vhs of it and turned me into a fan
Tito is certainly in the top 10 of most influential MMA pioneers of all time. He was former LHW champion and ranked number one in the world at a time. He was, at the time the biggest Mma star on the planet and the most paid. Fights with Couture, Liddell and Forest have somewhere in history.
MMAFTM13 said:
Tito is certainly in the top 10 of most influential MMA pioneers of all time. He was former LHW champion and ranked number one in the world at a time. He was, at the time the biggest Mma star on the planet and the most paid. Fights with Couture, Liddell and Forest have somewhere in history.
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The baddest Brit on the planet will send reality check tonight.
MMAFTM13 said:
I hope so man but I think Tito has a real shot here in this fight and that's only stylistically.
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Well. One things fo sho, we find out tonight, or morn your' side the pond. I just might be a tad biased, but I see Liam DoIn a number on him.