Xamot
I'm married now! Suck it Webble!
I intentionally left Russell off, because I wanted this conversation to happen my good sir...
NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Russell is 11-1 in the finals. 11 rings sounds nice, YES, but there's a reason you don't call Royce Gracie the greatest fighter of all time, even though what he did at the time was incredible.. And why?
Russell was 11-1 during a time the NBA had 8 teams... and expanded to..... 14. (There's 30 teams now)
Russell had to beat 1 team (If you were the #1 team in your conference, you only had to win 1 game to make it to the finals) or 2, if he was in the #2 or #3 area... You only made the playoffs if you were in the top 3... of 8 teams... (Now the playoffs go to 8 teams for each conference, so 16 total.. WHICH IS MORE TEAMS IN THE PLAYOFFS NOW THAN WERE ON THE ROSTER)
Russell had the same revolving door of people to play against and still lost...
Imagine if Goat Jones had the same 8 people to fight.. over and over..
Or Jordan played the same 8 teams...
They played less games and had FAR less people to worry about.. Which goes back to the point of what I said "Fighting... is not the same as a sport where you can rely on someone else to take the load off for a moment... 1 mistake can cost you everything"
Now you know the same can be said for Basketball, in an era where he could ONLY be dominant, even Russell lost.. when it was at its easiest, 1 maybe 2 (hard-pressed to think of 3) people could compete with Russell during that time and he still LOST. 11-1.. There's still a 1.. and he was responsible for the loss, just like his team was.
Jordan is 6-0, against 30+ teams, no matter what.. there was never a loss.
Now I spoke about how accolades couldn't be touched.
Jordan (Even now with this point-stat padding era) has the highest PPG of all time
Most 30 points per game
Just got passed for most playoff points, but has the 2nd most playoff points with the least time and less shots/games in the playoffs
You mention the DPOY wasn't invented. That reward would belong to either Hakeem, Russell, Kareem or Wilt, easily. Jordan is an incredible defender, but they are 7 foot and above.. Jordan is only 6'6. It's incredible that during an era where Hakeem, Mark eaton and others were playing, knowing defense is literally their thing.
But I'm not asking who the better defender is... Who is the GREATEST PLAYER?! Like I said, Jordan. His accolades prove it. His individual and team accolades are too great, and show like I said earlier
"you look at rings, the amount of times they won/lossed, who they won against, how dominant were they in particular and how much of that dominance led to their team winning? When they touched the court, could you see a clear difference in skill between them and the other players? What individual accolades did they have? What titles were theirs alone along with mvp's"
Wilt winning 5 mvp's during that era makes me mad.. because you had a pick of 3 people...
Jordan winning mvp over... Hakeem, Barkley, Kemp, Magic, Bird, Drexler, Wilkins, Thomas, Stockton, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, etc.. Is amazing. And to do it.. 5 times. (We all know he should have like 10 but 5 is cool)
Individual accolades? Jordan has the most scoring titles, the most finals mvps, the most PPG all time, the most PPG playoff all-time, 3rd ALLTIME for steals of ANY position.
On stats the lead directly to winning (Scoring points) Jordan not only is the highest on the court, but he's the highest all time.
Rebounding is awesome, Blocking shots is cool as shit.. But did you block the ball from going in.. more times than it did go in? Does your team at the end of the game have more points than the other, and did your blocking contribute to that? If you lost.. then no. If you won, then yes. 11 times Russell made sure it worked.. and 1 time it didn't. Against the same team he's beaten before... 91.6% of the time it worked. 8.4% of the time.. it didn't.
Jordan 6 times made sure it worked... and 0 times it didn't.
100% of the time it worked. 0% doesn't need to be said.
Same goes with Goat Jones, he didn't have a tournament of random people off the street thinking they were good (gracie)... He fought people who did nothing but TRAIN to fight... and won... (You remember the era of 'THIS IS THE GUY TO BEAT JONES' then they lost and people hated them for losing or loved their effort and became fan favorites like Gus) Every time. What Gracie did grew the sport and made people focus. What Russell did, grew the NBA and got people to watch more (aside from the racist shit, not Magic, bird or Jordan levels of watching but got eyes),
Gracie's accomplishments cannot be appreciated more... BUT your competition was nowhere near... That of an average UFC fighter even 8 years after his tournament.
Russells accomplishments cannot be appreciated more.. BUT your competition were the same 8-14 teams you faced, we KNOW most weren't on your level and were just playing to play.. most had other jobs and played as a hobby, Jordan faced people who made it a career and still won.
Magic, Thomas, Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Miller, O'Neal, Mourning, Hardaway, Wilkins, Webber, Worthy, Dumars, Parish, Price, etc... These are just SOME of the players Jordan beat in the playoffs. Just a quick glance at that list.. and there's 3 people.. in EVERYONE'S top 10. 5 in top 15. Like I said, it's "Who you beat"
To be greater than someone, you need to beat not only them but their legacy.
Someone would need to go perfect in the finals, while also going 7-0 or higher,
while getting finals mvp's the entire time,
more than 5 regular season mvp's,
more than 10 scoring championships,
a DPOY,
either 3 3 peats or 7 straight,
beat legends upon legends, do it while maintaining the air of invicibility Jordan had,
Ending your career with the most PPG,
Ending your career with the most Playoff PPG,
that's just a small amount AND you have to do it in less time than Jordan did.
^
That's why it's not possible. You can't beat that.. and yet that's what Jordan is. Jordan IS the 6-0 with 6 finals mvps. Jordan IS the 2 3 peat, jordan IS the man with 10 scoring championships, Jordan IS the man with 5 mvp's and a DPOY, etc.. That's legacy.
Just like to beat Goat Jones legacy, you would need to
Become the youngest champion ever,
defeat the most undefeated fighters ever,
have the highest takedown defense,
never get knocked down,
never get rocked,
beat people at their own style,
remain undefeated,
have the most title fight wins,
have the most title defenses,
Basically have a decade where you were champion through it
(No bs, from 2011, to 2020, Jones was champion, every year)
Move up in weight, dominating the most dangerous fighter who will eventually become champion,
beat the greatest of that division's history,
defend your belt in another weight class,
Defeat the most champions/former champions ever,
etc...
That is why their legacy is too much to topple. How do you do the things Jordan and Goat Jones do? GOATS
