WTF RASHAD A BLACK BELT
- Thread starter Nastycrow
- Start date
bjj_rage said:
I call it Marketing Belt...
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I agree. Rashad obviously has ground skill, considering he trains with Greg Jackson, but I doubt Evans could ever teach BJJ. I actually asked my BJJ instructor about this, and he said the Gracies aren't known for just handing out black belts, but he wouldn't surprised if he got it just because of who he is. It's like an honorary PhD given to a politician or actor.
Thiago is a black belt too, rashad prob figured its not worth tryin subs cause it can make u really tired. Especially against someone as strong and big as Thiago. I also think it was part of his gameplan, to make thiago tired by forcing him to fight to get back up everytime he was taken down. Silva did look gassed and couldn't finish rashad for that same reason. He stuided him and exposed his weakness. It was a very smart strategy, i think he played it safe to make sure he gets the W and can get to rampage. He knew if he standed with silva he had a pretty high chance of gettin KOed. Even tho he did do da STANKIE LEG again, he survived and did what he need to do to win, which include leaving the ju-jits out for this one.
grapplethis said:
RearNakedSlam said:
It's common for top level MMA fighters to get handed belts based on their performance in the ring. That's confusing to me because Rashad has used no BJJ in the ring, and from what I know has competed in zero tournaments, so what could the criteria be for him being given a BB. It all seems a bit sketchy.
Also, at the guy that made the comment that Rolles Gracie wouldn't just give someone a BB. Who do you know that Rolles has taught? His father taught a few big named guys, but Rolles is just a 2nd degree black belt that trains at Renzo academy. I don't know of Rolles having any students, which makes this all the more awkward.
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i'm pretty sure cole miller LITERALLY got handed a brown belt for submitting dan lauzon.
mir got his BB for breaking Tim Sylvia's arm.
it happens. if you use grappling in a real fight, that's as good a test as any. IMO
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nah, he's had his brown belt for a bit now. i know that as far back as the junie browning fight here in nashville, he had his brown belt around his neck during his interview with rogan.
eric b
RearNakedSlam said:
You think that warrants a BB? If thats what it takes to be a BB in BJJ, sign me up. When I think BB I think of guys like Royce Gracie, Roger Gracie, Demian Maia, Palhares, guys that are masters of BJJ. Not guys that learn it for BJJ defense, or learn it for a specific fight. Rashad clearly has a BB, noone is debating that, it's whether he deserves it or not. Which I would say no, he probably doesn't, he hasn't even competed in any tournaments or used it in MMA.
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Sorry dude but have you rolled with the guy? I didn't think so. How the hell can you say that he doesn't deserve a Black Belt if you have never seen him roll??? It seems a little ridiculous to me.
There are hundreds of BJJ BB's who aren't Demain Maia or Marcello Garcia, those guys are one in a million. There are 4 BB's at my gym who you would never have heard of, they compete in local comps but they are legit BB's. GSP is a BB too how often does he display that skill in the cage? Are you questioning the validity of his BB??? Rogan is a brown belt, he never competes or fights, does he not deserve his rank? Just because a guy doesn't compete in BJJ tourneys or doesn't submit people then they fight doesn't automatically mean they don't deserve a black belt in BJJ, that's ridiculous. A belt is a symbol of the skill level achieved by the student, and obviously Rashad's BJJ coach deemed him at that skill level. Its impossible to say he doesn't deserve that rank without seeing him display the skill he has.
grapplethis said:
i'm pretty sure cole miller LITERALLY got handed a brown belt for submitting dan lauzon
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Nah, he's had his belt for a while. I remember seeing it after the Junie beat down. Mir definitely got his BB after he won the title though.
RearNakedSlam said:
It's why Hughes beat Newton, Castillo, Verissimo, Royce Gracie, Lytle, and why he's gonna beat Renzo Gracie.
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Because Hughes has absolutely no BJJ skill at all right? Just a pure Mark Coleman esk wrestler.
Its not Wrestling > BJJ, if anything in the days of pure art vs. art showed that BJJ > anything, but in general Wrestling + BJJ > BJJ.
HBK42581 said:
Just because a dude is a black belt in BJJ doesn't mean you'll see a dozen submission attempts from him in every fight. Rashad has his boxing and wrestling skills that he can rely on to either finish fights or put him ahead on the scorecards. He prolly just learned BJJ so he knew how to defend against guys that are better at it than him. My guess is that he put in a LOT of time on BJJ and wrestling preparing for Thiago.
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+1 I love how people bash someone about whether or not so and so is a black belt just because they don't end their fights with subs. I bet the same guys would call BS if I told them Wanderlei Silva is a black belt as well. Or freaking Shogun, him and his brother are black belts. Get a clue fellas. I dare anyone on this site to go roll with Rashad and tell me then that he's not a black belt in BJJ.
Again, let's stress that these professional athletes train as many hours as we, the armchair QBs, casual fans, regular practitioners, go to our 8-hour/40 hour week 'regular' jobs, if not more.
Working a 40+ hour week, I can only really dedicate at most 10 hours a week on training/working out, including weekends. It'd be awesome to use that time I 'waste' in the daily grind, and get in more drilling, reps, and sparring/rolling.
I've heard 'regular' folks get their black belts in BJJ in about 7-10 years. If we're defining ourselves as regular, then 4 years for Rashad, who is a proven collegiate/elite wrestler and a full-time fighter, is completely realistic.
It's like saying something like, 'So and so got his Bachelor's degree in only 3 years....Blasphemy!'
timmehblizzard said:
RearNakedSlam said:
It's why Hughes beat Newton, Castillo, Verissimo, Royce Gracie, Lytle, and why he's gonna beat Renzo Gracie.
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Because Hughes has absolutely no BJJ skill at all right? Just a pure Mark Coleman esk wrestler.
Its not Wrestling > BJJ, if anything in the days of pure art vs. art showed that BJJ > anything, but in general Wrestling + BJJ > BJJ.
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It wasn't a serious comment, it was mocking the fact that just because Royce beat a wrestler doesn't mean BJJ > wrestling. Also, most of the wins I mentioned were from when Hughes was a one dimensional wrestler (Coleman esk).
timmehblizzard said:
RearNakedSlam said:
You think that warrants a BB? If thats what it takes to be a BB in BJJ, sign me up. When I think BB I think of guys like Royce Gracie, Roger Gracie, Demian Maia, Palhares, guys that are masters of BJJ. Not guys that learn it for BJJ defense, or learn it for a specific fight. Rashad clearly has a BB, noone is debating that, it's whether he deserves it or not. Which I would say no, he probably doesn't, he hasn't even competed in any tournaments or used it in MMA.
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Sorry dude but have you rolled with the guy? I didn't think so. How the hell can you say that he doesn't deserve a Black Belt if you have never seen him roll??? It seems a little ridiculous to me.
There are hundreds of BJJ BB's who aren't Demain Maia or Marcello Garcia, those guys are one in a million. There are 4 BB's at my gym who you would never have heard of, they compete in local comps but they are legit BB's. GSP is a BB too how often does he display that skill in the cage? Are you questioning the validity of his BB??? Rogan is a brown belt, he never competes or fights, does he not deserve his rank? Just because a guy doesn't compete in BJJ tourneys or doesn't submit people then they fight doesn't automatically mean they don't deserve a black belt in BJJ, that's ridiculous. A belt is a symbol of the skill level achieved by the student, and obviously Rashad's BJJ coach deemed him at that skill level. Its impossible to say he doesn't deserve that rank without seeing him display the skill he has.
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There's a difference between guys that aren't famous but are great at BJJ and have earned their BB, and a guy that we see fight regularly and shows not a single ounce of BJJ talent. As a previous poster mentioned about "honorary BB" based on MMA performance would make sense.
I have no doubt he rolls with BJJ guys, and he might very well be decent at it, it just doesn't make sense to me for someone that doesn't use it to be a BB. He should be stuck at brown belt until he shows proficiency in a tournament or a fight or something.
RearNakedSlam said:
There's a difference between guys that aren't famous but are great at BJJ and have earned their BB, and a guy that we see fight regularly and shows not a single ounce of BJJ talent. As a previous poster mentioned about "honorary BB" based on MMA performance would make sense.
I have no doubt he rolls with BJJ guys, and he might very well be decent at it, it just doesn't make sense to me for someone that doesn't use it to be a BB. He should be stuck at brown belt until he shows proficiency in a tournament or a fight or something.
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We haven't seem him use jiujitsu skills in the cage, but we haven't seen him challenged by a submissions either, except for one guillotine attempt by Tito Ortiz.
I don't know why he would ever use his jiujitsu in an offensive manner when his wrestling background is what comes naturally too him.
We wouldn't take away Chuck Liddell's credentials as an amateur wrestler simply because he didn't use takedowns in his prime. He used his wrestling defensively. I'm not sure why we would hold jiujitsu credentials to a different standard.
Note that I'm not even saying Evans is a legitimate black belt, I'm just saying that we don't really have too much reason based on what we've seen in the cage to doubt it, either.
RearNakedSlam said:
There's a difference between guys that aren't famous but are great at BJJ and have earned their BB, and a guy that we see fight regularly and shows not a single ounce of BJJ talent.
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See this is what I don't get about your logic here. Just because in the MMA environment Rashad hasn't displayed BJJ skill (and lest remember the majority of his fights lately have been standing), he MUST not have the skill level to deserve the belt? That doesn't make any sense at all. As Clown pointed out Chuck never went for a TD in his MMA life, but I'll bet you he had a wicked double leg. According to your logic he cant have had that skill simply because he didn't show it in the cage.
Is JDS less deserving of his purple belt than Cole Miller was when he started in the UFC because he isn't submitting people and Cole was? Is Joe Stevenson more worthy of his BB than GSP simply because he submits people and GSP doesn't?
As a previous poster mentioned about "honorary BB" based on MMA performance would make sense.
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It cant make more sense, you have no realistic information to go on. All you have is Rashad's cage experience and for a wrestler who likes to strike its unlikely there would be many situations where he would have the opportunity to sweep or submit someone. The guy has been standing and banging for years now.
Anyway the Gracie family is notorious for not giving out BB's lightly. For Rolles to just give Rashad a BB if he wasn't at that skill level, just because he is famous, would be very out of character. Personally I think that sort of thing demines what the black belt itself and no one I have ever met or trained with would be ok with that. You have to give Rolles the benefit of the doubt.
I have no doubt he rolls with BJJ guys, and he might very well be decent at it,
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I'm sure training at Jacksons for as long as he has Rashad not only "rolls with BJJ guys" but has BJJ classes every day. According to the head BJJ coach and founding partner of ATT Ricardo Liborio ALL new students start off with BJJ classes, Gi and all. All ATT fighters have dedicated BJJ classes, just like the rest of us, all the time. I'm sure Jackson Submission Fighting is no different. There is no reason why Rashad couldn't have been training BJJ as a part of his normal MMA routine for years now.
it just doesn't make sense to me for someone that doesn't use it to be a BB. He should be stuck at brown belt until he shows proficiency in a tournament or a fight or something.
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That's just not the way it works. There are plenty of BJJ BB's who only compete for fun, they aren't held at brown belt just because they don't compete at the top level of the sport. Some don't compete at all. Rashad on the other hand is competing at the very top of MMA, in the most staked division yet he HAS to display effective BJJ skill in the cage or he doesn't deserve his BB? Why should he have to do what none of us are expected to?
Fundamentally it works like this; if he displays Black Belt level skill to his instructor and he thinks Rashad is ready he gets his black belt. That's it. It doesn't matter what we think or what we have seen, those skills do not have to be displayed in public (at least not at most schools). Last grading my head instructor handed out 4 black belts to guys who had been at brown for years. There was no comp, no fight, no public display, just a grading like we all have.
I wouldn't have given Chuck a BB equivalent in wrestling either. Though he did use his wrestling all the time by stuffing takedowns and standing up instantly after being taken down, which would be the equivalent of escaping an armbar or a triangle or something, and he did take people down, just not very often.
I've said it multiple times that he may very well be a good BJJ guy that deserves it, but show me a BJJ BB in MMA that hasn't attempted a submission. It's wierd to say the least.
RearNakedSlam said:
I wouldn't have given Chuck a BB equivalent in wrestling either. Though he did use his wrestling all the time by stuffing takedowns and standing up instantly after being taken down, which would be the equivalent of escaping an armbar or a triangle or something, and he did take people down, just not very often.
I've said it multiple times that he may very well be a good BJJ guy that deserves it, but show me a BJJ BB in MMA that hasn't attempted a submission. It's wierd to say the least.
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Jorge Gurgel is a BJJ black belt, but he hasn't used his skills for years in the UFC, and that's supposed to be his strength, and in fact, Cole Miller caught him in a triangle. I haven't seen him take anybody down in years or pull guard or do anything BJJ-like, except strike like he only knows BJJ or put his neck out so Cole could triangle him. In fact, if it could be possible, maybe he should be demoted and give up some stripes or just the entire black belt altogether.
Wandy is a BJJ black belt, too. He's submitted plenty of guys...due to strikes.
Thiago Silva: Black belt. When was the last time you saw an armbar attempt by him?
Jose Aldo: Black belt. Same.
In fact, I'm guessing that a Brazilians are born holding a 2 stripe blue belt in BJJ, since it seems every fighter from Brazil has a black belt, and there are many examples of guys who don't use this skill, though they deem to have been put into this special 'BB club' that reflects their high level of skill.
Another example to note: When Gabriel Gonzaga fought Carmelo Marrero, he destroyed him on the ground, and Carmelo was supposedly a black belt, too.
Given a fighting position/situation, given an opponent's skillset, given the fact that you're locked up in a ring with someone else who wants to tear your head off, given that you have strengths you rely on and weaknesses you hide (and a BJJ BB may deem that skill a weakness if he's fighting someone he knows is more proficient), you adapt accordingly.
Just because you're on the ground and mounted doesn't mean you go for bridge sweep. If you're strong enough, you may just want to underhook and roll or back-door escape or maybe even just power through.
The complexity of MMA is what makes it a great challenge, and the transition game doesn't necessarily mean you need to transition from one skill set to the next (ie, striking to BJJ).
Before Gurgel went retarded and did the whole "i fight for the fans" thing, he was submitting people left right and center.
Thiago Silva and Wanderlei Silva are both excellent examples to prove me wrong, and if they hadn't already had their BB I would probably be having this argument about them as well. So you make a very good point.
Carmelo Marrero is a horrible example though, he has submitted quite a few people with some pretty impressive submissions.
I'm starting to lose faith in the belt system, there have been some good examples of guys with BB that really shouldn't have them. Instructors should be more like Cesar Gracie, BB should be reserved for people that have shown exemplary skill in BJJ specifically, and have proven themselves thoroughly in competition. Sadly this isn't so, and it tarnishes the concept of having a BB.
I guess I will just throw Rolles Gracie into the list of instructors that hand out BB for fun.
syhawaiian said:
oldwardog said:
If Ed O'Neil can be a BJJ Black why would anyone doubt a pro athlete like Rashad could be?
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Wait, but Al Bundy was also a high school QB. If he hadn't broken his leg during that one game in high school, he'd be Joe Montana.
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I though Al was a RB or WR?