10th planet Jiu-Jitsu
- Thread starter Nastycrow
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Portillo said:
I dont know much about Eddie Bravo and was wondering how come he never competed in MMA?
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He barely ever competed in BJJ either. The guy is excellent at brand placement and a pretty good BJJ black belt, but nothing really special. The only thing he really accomplished in competition was he caught Royler Gracie in a triangle at the 2003 ADCC.
Cool guy, did some cool things with the guard, not worth all the attention IMHO.
timmehblizzard said:
Portillo said:
I dont know much about Eddie Bravo and was wondering how come he never competed in MMA?
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He barely ever competed in BJJ either. The guy is excellent at brand placement and a pretty good BJJ black belt, but nothing really special. The only thing he really accomplished in competition was he caught Royler Gracie in a triangle at the 2003 ADCC.
Cool guy, did some cool things with the guard, not worth all the attention IMHO.
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i think he's a very important figure on the landscape of brazilian ju jitsu. the rubber guard is one of if not THE most significant innovation in technique since Helio Gracie and carlos gracie started the whole thing.
rubber guard is brilliant and if you've ever rolled with someone who is good at it, you'd know how astoundingly effective it is.
when he tapped royler, he basically broke his posture repeatedly with the slight movements and control that the rubber guard is designed for, and then he caught him with a choke.
just look up video of bravo rolling to see how devastating his guard is. he's never competed in MMA and hasn't done much in grappling since he tapped royler and he hadnt' done much before it. but he's legit. i've rolled with some students of his students and even the white belts are intense with the rubber guard.
Eddie Bravo is the new age of BJJ. His school and gyms are no GI based. Which is more MMA related. Many of your favorite fighters use his rubber guard and other innovative guards in MMA. His Jitz is top notch and ahead of most of the Gracies. Many of your faves study under him or study his moves.
He is great man. Their is a reason why Joe Rogan hangs out with him besides the pot. He is amazing at Jitz. I think he recently had one of his students beat him to obtain a Black belt in 10thplanetJJ
grapplethis said:
i think he's a very important figure on the landscape of brazilian ju jitsu. the rubber guard is one of if not THE most significant innovation in technique since Helio Gracie and carlos gracie started the whole thing.
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That's a very, very big statement.
rubber guard is brilliant and if you've ever rolled with someone who is good at it, you'd know how astoundingly effective it is.
when he tapped royler, he basically broke his posture repeatedly with the slight movements and control that the rubber guard is designed for, and then he caught him with a choke.
just look up video of bravo rolling to see how devastating his guard is. he's never competed in MMA and hasn't done much in grappling since he tapped royler and he hadnt' done much before it. but he's legit. i've rolled with some students of his students and even the white belts are intense with the rubber guard.
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I have to admit I have never rolled with a 10th planet guy so I shouldn't be too quick to pass judgement. Most of the schools in Aus are run by Gracie or Machado BB's, not allot of 10th planet guys around.
However, the lack of success 10th planet students have had at the top level of submission grappling competition, or indeed even MMA makes me question how amazing it really is. Is the rubber guard more effective than a traditional guard or is it simply different with different strengths and weaknesses?
As for the bout with Royler, IIRC he caught that Triangle in a scramble. It wasn't set up from the guard itself i.e. exactly the same as "traditional" BJJ. I have no doubt the RG is an excellent defensive guard in terms of breaking posture, but I'm not so sure its any more effective than a normal open or closed guard offensively.
ACOGSCOPE said:
Eddie Bravo is the new age of BJJ. His school and gyms are no GI based. Which is more MMA related.
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Practically every school runs dedicated No Gi classes.
Many of your favorite fighters use his rubber guard and other innovative guards in MMA.
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Who consistently uses the rubber guard in MMA?
His Jitz is top notch and ahead of most of the Gracies.
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Say what??? Why? Because he caught Royler? That's the only notable win in his grappling career.
timmehblizzard said:
ACOGSCOPE said:
Eddie Bravo is the new age of BJJ. His school and gyms are no GI based. Which is more MMA related.
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Practically every school runs dedicated No Gi classes.
Many of your favorite fighters use his rubber guard and other innovative guards in MMA.
Click to expand...
Who consistently uses the rubber guard in MMA?
His Jitz is top notch and ahead of most of the Gracies.
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Say what??? Why? Because he caught Royler? That's the only notable win in his grappling career.
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Eddie Bravo's jitz is more MMA related which makes it more modern. Half of the crap you learn in GI is irrelevant to MMA.
BJ Penn, and Leben have shown to use Rubber Guard in the past. Its not just the rubber guard that is epic, but his all around jitz which is good.
Most schools run no gi programs.....I know that for certain. But you ask any instructors on which books or videos you should watch......And all opinions are eddie bravo. My experience at least.
Eddie Bravo's Jitz is ahead of the Gracies because it has evolved past the closed guard and open guard with all types of guards. My opinion.................
timmehblizzard said:
That's a very, very big statement.
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not if you really think about it. name an innovation in ju jitsu that you can point to as more significant than the development of an entirely new system of guard play.
rubber guard is brilliant and if you've ever rolled with someone who is good at it, you'd know how astoundingly effective it is.
when he tapped royler, he basically broke his posture repeatedly with the slight movements and control that the rubber guard is designed for, and then he caught him with a choke.
just look up video of bravo rolling to see how devastating his guard is. he's never competed in MMA and hasn't done much in grappling since he tapped royler and he hadnt' done much before it. but he's legit. i've rolled with some students of his students and even the white belts are intense with the rubber guard.
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I have to admit I have never rolled with a 10th planet guy so I shouldn't be too quick to pass judgement. Most of the schools in Aus are run by Gracie or Machado BB's, not allot of 10th planet guys around.
However, the lack of success 10th planet students have had at the top level of submission grappling competition, or indeed even MMA makes me question how amazing it really is. Is the rubber guard more effective than a traditional guard or is it simply different with different strengths and weaknesses?
As for the bout with Royler, IIRC he caught that Triangle in a scramble. It wasn't set up from the guard itself i.e. exactly the same as "traditional" BJJ. I have no doubt the RG is an excellent defensive guard in terms of breaking posture, but I'm not so sure its any more effective than a normal open or closed guard offensively.[/quote]
i never said it was more effective at all, just very devastating. people who use rubber guard in mma and do it well can be very effective with it. BJ Penn likes to work it sometimes, and when he does it right he is very good at it. McLovin' is a big fan and he probably has the best technical rubber guard in MMA beyond Shinya Aoki. Aoki trains with Bravo and is easily the most famous and best practitioner of rubber guard in mma.
so there has been some success. not as much as traditional gracie ju jitsu or even machado's version, but it's there. i think it will play a more prominent role down the road, as jon fitch was basically right in saying that closed guard doesn't work as well these days. Rubber guard does what closed guard does, which is control posture, but it controls posture HIGHER up on the torso so that there is no way to posture up at all. you CAN posture in someone's closed guard and throw punches. not in rubber guard. you have to break it first. and you really only need one arm to hold a guy's postured with rubber guard.
and while being a great defensive tool, IMO it sets up more offense than a closed guard does because you're only a few subtle movements away from a omoplata or gogoplata or a triangle. and whatever leg you pull up in rubber guard, you've isolated the opponents arm on that side.
it's very effective, but very new. in time i think it's benefits will be played out for the public to see.
again, not better, just different and effective.
Grapplethis is correct. I couldnt have said it better.
Im impressed with your knowledge of thought in 10thplanetJJ. TOo many people just think of Gracie JJ as the top JJ out there. It clearly has not evolved, but serves its purpose as the building blocks of Jitz today for beginners and intermediate people.
10thplanetJJ is very highlevel stuff. While alot of the instructors study his moves, they often dont teach many of his passes because its so technical. Most noob classes just have you learning the basics while 10thplanetJJ has you learning at a much higher and faster pace.
ACOGSCOPE said:
Grapplethis is correct. I couldnt have said it better.
Im impressed with your knowledge of thought in 10thplanetJJ. TOo many people just think of Gracie JJ as the top JJ out there. It clearly has not evolved, but serves its purpose as the building blocks of Jitz today for beginners and intermediate people.
10thplanetJJ is very highlevel stuff. While alot of the instructors study his moves, they often dont teach many of his passes because its so technical. Most noob classes just have you learning the basics while 10thplanetJJ has you learning at a much higher and faster pace.
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i don't train at 10th planet but there's one up the street from my house and i've had some friendly rolls with a few of them. my gym and there gym let students show up at either for designated sparring days (we have saturdays they have thursdays). i don't do anything with the gi, but rubber guard is killer without it, i can say that.
grapplethis said:
ACOGSCOPE said:
Grapplethis is correct. I couldnt have said it better.
Im impressed with your knowledge of thought in 10thplanetJJ. TOo many people just think of Gracie JJ as the top JJ out there. It clearly has not evolved, but serves its purpose as the building blocks of Jitz today for beginners and intermediate people.
10thplanetJJ is very highlevel stuff. While alot of the instructors study his moves, they often dont teach many of his passes because its so technical. Most noob classes just have you learning the basics while 10thplanetJJ has you learning at a much higher and faster pace.
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i don't train at 10th planet but there's one up the street from my house and i've had some friendly rolls with a few of them. my gym and there gym let students show up at either for designated sparring days (we have saturdays they have thursdays). i don't do anything with the gi, but rubber guard is killer without it, i can say that.
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Thats cool that they allow that. Our gym has open matt with other gyms in the city as well. Get different looks from differnt people. They also have been setting up small BJJ tourneys between the gyms in the area just for fun. Kinda cool.
smarty said:
Watch Alan Belcher vs. Jason Day at UFC 83. Day stuck Belcher in his rubber guard and gave him a ton of punishment before eventually TKO'ing him on his feet.
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that's ironic considering how much acogscope has posted in this thread :lol: :lol: :lol: i hadn't mentioned that fight because he was reading this.
ACOGSCOPE said:
Eddie Bravo's jitz is more MMA related which makes it more modern. Half of the crap you learn in GI is irrelevant to MMA.
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Gi techniques are by and large not directly applicable to MMA, but there is value in training with the Gi beyond the individual technique. Gi is much more technical. GSP and Nick Diaz train with a Gi.
BJ Penn, and Leben have shown to use Rubber Guard in the past. Its not just the rubber guard that is epic, but his all around jitz which is good.
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I don’t remember BJ Penn using it specifically; I do remember him going for an omoplata with one leg in a high guard. Aoki is another story. Still you can’t say the whole Rubber Guard system has really caught on MMA can you? Gees, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen something close to a Rubber Guard in an MMA bout, and I watch a lot of american MMA. True, not much Japanese stuff though.
Considering the amount of publicity this guard system has enjoyed of late (it was even in unleashed) I wonder why everyone isn’t training/using it?
Most schools run no gi programs.....I know that for certain. But you ask any instructors on which books or videos you should watch......And all opinions are eddie bravo. My experience at least.
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I'll ask my coach; somehow I doubt he'll agree, though he is a Machado guy.
Eddie Bravo's Jitz is ahead of the Gracies because it has evolved past the closed guard and open guard with all types of guards. My opinion.................
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That right there is the problem I have with 10th planet. People who are fans of the system always come off sounding like a marketing major. Buzz words like "evolution" and "next level of BJJ", IIRC Eddie doesn't like to refer to 10th planet as BJJ, it’s a "whole new system". The Rubber guard is a development of the guard, probably a pretty effective one no doubt. However you assume that a) Eddie Bravo is the only BJJ BB developing/evolving the art and b) because Eddie has come up with a new form of high guard that his BJJ is better than most of the Gracies(!).
The evolution of the omoplata in "traditional" Gi and No Gi BJJ has been a massive development of late. People have built their whole guards around the dynamic omoplata, that sort of thing didn’t happen 10 years ago. From someone without any experience with the Rubber Guard or a Dynamic Omoplata I cant see a massive amount of difference or superiority between the two. The thing with Eddie Bravo is that he has packaged and marketed his product properly. Having a "system" that is said by your followers to the "the next evolution of BJJ" (implying it's superior) and has TV personalities like Rogan training it will tend to draw attention from people looking to start Grappling, even though Nova Uniao, Gracie Barra or Alliance Jiu Jitsu have a much better pedigree and have a much higher chance of making you a world champion.
Again, while the Rubber Guard may have some merit in MMA, until 10th planet students start performing in No Gi submission grappling tournaments the rhetoric still won’t match the reality as far as the viability of the 10th planet system goes. If the 10th planet system is superior to "traditional BJJ" (thus, according to you, the reason why Bravo has better BJJ than most of the Gracies and their "stagnant" guard games) then where's the performance on the mat's?
grapplethis said:
not if you really think about it. name an innovation in ju jitsu that you can point to as more significant than the development of an entirely new system of guard play.
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I am sceptical that it is in fact an entirely new system of guard play. Apparently Nino Schembri was using the Rubber guard long before Eddie founded 10th Planet JJ. In fact it’s arguable that any of Eddies moves are totally original. The main thing Eddie did was organise these various techniques into a system and give them cool names, and then market his product.
Mikonosuke Kawaishi in 1955:
Look anything like "mission control"?
Again I think the development of the omoplata and "conventional" high guard have had a massive impact on BJJ in the last decade.
i never said it was more effective at all, just very devastating.
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I guess I'm talking about the general attitude towards the RG and Eddie, displayed in AGO's post above. The hype implies that the RG IS a superior guard system (usually when something is more evolved it is superior
) when the proof simply isn't in the pudding. Eddie and 10th planet haven’t had any real success in No Gi tournies. The man himself got tooled by Leonardo Viera right after his greatest victory which was a bit of a Matt Serra moment.
people who use rubber guard in mma and do it well can be very effective with it. BJ Penn likes to work it sometimes, and when he does it right he is very good at it. McLovin' is a big fan and he probably has the best technical rubber guard in MMA beyond Shinya Aoki. Aoki trains with Bravo and is easily the most famous and best practitioner of rubber guard in mma.
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Aoki is the only guy I can think of who uses the RG regularly. Again with the amount of fighters who have at least added the RG to their BJJ game the rarity of a well known guard which is specifically "designed" for MMA says a lot about its “revolutionary” usefulness.
so there has been some success. not as much as traditional gracie ju jitsu or even machado's version, but it's there. i think it will play a more prominent role down the road, as jon fitch was basically right in saying that closed guard doesn't work as well these days.
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Given the disproportionate level of publicity the system enjoys I don’t see how it will blossom later on down the road. I can think of plenty of fighters who have travelled to California to see Eddie and learn the RG, yet again its hardly taking MMA BJJ by storm.
Rubber guard does what closed guard does, which is control posture, but it controls posture HIGHER up on the torso so that there is no way to posture up at all. you CAN posture in someone's closed guard and throw punches. not in rubber guard. you have to break it first. and you really only need one arm to hold a guy's postured with rubber guard.
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But plenty of high guard techniques give you that while controlling posture. The RG does look like it is useful for setting up the omoplata, but your other attacking options including the look relatively limited. Another issue with the RG is it limits your opportunity to create space and escape. It "condemns" the user to the bottom position unless he pulls off a sweep, not great in MMA.
and while being a great defensive tool, IMO it sets up more offense than a closed guard does because you're only a few subtle movements away from a omoplata or gogoplata or a triangle. and whatever leg you pull up in rubber guard, you've isolated the opponents arm on that side.
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Again plenty of other high guards do that for you as well.
again, not better, just different and effective.
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This is the issue I have with the whole RG fan club (not you BTW), It doesn’t do anything that other techniques in BJJ will do for you. I just don’t see how it is revolutionary or significantly different (on a technical level) from good old fashioned BJJ. Effective it may be, but does it deserve the “revolutionary” hype?