my 1st day
- Thread starter Nastycrow
- Start date
Phenom said:
The rule at our gym for sparring is hit as hard as you want to get hit. We had a guy come in frm California about a month ago (he was visiting) Leben let him train with the fight team. he was about 185-190 pounds and he started sparring balls out with one of our smaller guys (about 140) He ends up knocking the small guy out. Next round he had to go with Chris. Leben didn't go 100% but pretty close, but he dropped they guy repeatedly, needless to say the guy didn't make it the whole round and he never came back.
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That is fair Justice. That is how Duke Roufus rolls! That guy kicks hard as hell!
Stories like these are why I can't understand why instructors let beginners spar.
I can kind of see if you're some marginal gym that doesn't really have a ton of standing in the MMA world... you want give people the benefit of the doubt so they'll stick around and you can collect fees and what not.
If you're a reputable gym with professional fighters, why are you going to let beginners come in and box or roll on the first or second class they take? When I kickboxed, it took me at least a month before I learned how to control my punches and kicks so that I could spar without hurting people.
Why not just keep them on the bags and have one of the assistants monitor their (and the other beginners) progress. Have them hit the bags and say, "okay now 60%... now 80%... see the difference? When they understand that and they're ready... then you let them actually fight/spar and it's a privledge rather then an expectation.
I don't know, I was just always taught at my gym that you had to go through with the tedious BS drills and completely master them and understand them inside out before you were given the privledge of sparring with others.
Put it this way... if someone is going to quit because their world class instructor tells them to hit pads instead of another human being so they can get their technique down... that's not really the kind of person you want in your gym anyways.
Now if you got pretty talented amateur guys who know what they're doing and they go nuts during a sparring session... yea, let them step in the ring with a professional for 5 minutes and get a better understand for what all out really means.
dombrow3 said:
the same pop that it makes when ever some stupid wrestler neck cranks me! It will pop if I do not submit to someone's half attempt of a can opener. Now whenever i lift weights, my neck will pop in the same spot and I am out of both gyms for 2 days least! My coach Red Schafer gave me some wrestling exercises to start stregthing my neck, but they dont work.
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Sounds like a partial AC Separation. You might actually want to go to a hospital and let them know about it...
osubuckeye4 said:
Stories like these are why I can't understand why instructors let beginners spar.
I can kind of see if you're some marginal gym that doesn't really have a ton of standing in the MMA world... you want give people the benefit of the doubt so they'll stick around and you can collect fees and what not.
If you're a reputable gym with professional fighters, why are you going to let beginners come in and box or roll on the first or second class they take? When I kickboxed, it took me at least a month before I learned how to control my punches and kicks so that I could spar without hurting people.
Why not just keep them on the bags and have one of the assistants monitor their (and the other beginners) progress. Have them hit the bags and say, "okay now 60%... now 80%... see the difference? When they understand that and they're ready... then you let them actually fight/spar and it's a privledge rather then an expectation.
I don't know, I was just always taught at my gym that you had to go through with the tedious BS drills and completely master them and understand them inside out before you were given the privledge of sparring with others.
Put it this way... if someone is going to quit because their world class instructor tells them to hit pads instead of another human being so they can get their technique down... that's not really the kind of person you want in your gym anyways.
Now if you got pretty talented amateur guys who know what they're doing and they go nuts during a sparring session... yea, let them step in the ring with a professional for 5 minutes and get a better understand for what all out really means.
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The guy that came in from Cali had talked to Chris and said that he was a fighter and was just looking to get some work in while he was on vacation and his fiance was at the mall shopping. he then proceeded to try to kill a much smaller guy while sparring. I was just upset that it happened on the day I forgot my video camera.
osubuckeye4 said:
Stories like these are why I can't understand why instructors let beginners spar.
I can kind of see if you're some marginal gym that doesn't really have a ton of standing in the MMA world... you want give people the benefit of the doubt so they'll stick around and you can collect fees and what not.
If you're a reputable gym with professional fighters, why are you going to let beginners come in and box or roll on the first or second class they take? When I kickboxed, it took me at least a month before I learned how to control my punches and kicks so that I could spar without hurting people.
Why not just keep them on the bags and have one of the assistants monitor their (and the other beginners) progress. Have them hit the bags and say, "okay now 60%... now 80%... see the difference? When they understand that and they're ready... then you let them actually fight/spar and it's a privledge rather then an expectation.
I don't know, I was just always taught at my gym that you had to go through with the tedious BS drills and completely master them and understand them inside out before you were given the privledge of sparring with others.
Put it this way... if someone is going to quit because their world class instructor tells them to hit pads instead of another human being so they can get their technique down... that's not really the kind of person you want in your gym anyways.
Now if you got pretty talented amateur guys who know what they're doing and they go nuts during a sparring session... yea, let them step in the ring with a professional for 5 minutes and get a better understand for what all out really means.
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Maybe you should look up the word control. It is controlled sparring. They dont hit each other hard. You hit pads, you often develop alot more bad habits. Such as hitting focus pads. Noob tend to hold them in a way that both hands are at 10 pm and 2 am positions. WHOS HEAD IS THAT DAMN BIG. You low kick on pads, well you arent really hitting the spot where you need to because you cant see it. Dont get me wrong, they work on the pads, but habits are formed while you spar. For instance, eye contact with the bads.(Very bad) Controled sparring, looking at partner's eyes. The most important thing with controlled sparring, you get used to being hit at. Everyones main goal is to move to intermediate so you can spar aggressively. They just dont move people up after month(Unless you are good) It took me 2 months to move to intermediate. I tell you what, before I was moved up, I was hitting bags and mitts. Then when it actually went live, I was not used to being hit at. I couldnt keep my eye on my partners eyes. I had bad habits looking at my partners feet. I think controlled sparring works best!
dombrow3 said:
osubuckeye4 said:
Stories like these are why I can't understand why instructors let beginners spar.
I can kind of see if you're some marginal gym that doesn't really have a ton of standing in the MMA world... you want give people the benefit of the doubt so they'll stick around and you can collect fees and what not.
If you're a reputable gym with professional fighters, why are you going to let beginners come in and box or roll on the first or second class they take? When I kickboxed, it took me at least a month before I learned how to control my punches and kicks so that I could spar without hurting people.
Why not just keep them on the bags and have one of the assistants monitor their (and the other beginners) progress. Have them hit the bags and say, "okay now 60%... now 80%... see the difference? When they understand that and they're ready... then you let them actually fight/spar and it's a privledge rather then an expectation.
I don't know, I was just always taught at my gym that you had to go through with the tedious BS drills and completely master them and understand them inside out before you were given the privledge of sparring with others.
Put it this way... if someone is going to quit because their world class instructor tells them to hit pads instead of another human being so they can get their technique down... that's not really the kind of person you want in your gym anyways.
Now if you got pretty talented amateur guys who know what they're doing and they go nuts during a sparring session... yea, let them step in the ring with a professional for 5 minutes and get a better understand for what all out really means.
Click to expand...
Maybe you should look up the word control. It is controlled sparring. They dont hit each other hard. You hit pads, you often develop alot more bad habits. Such as hitting focus pads. Noob tend to hold them in a way that both hands are at 10 pm and 2 am positions. WHOS HEAD IS THAT DAMN BIG. You low kick on pads, well you arent really hitting the spot where you need to because you cant see it. Dont get me wrong, they work on the pads, but habits are formed while you spar. For instance, eye contact with the bads.(Very bad) Controled sparring, looking at partner's eyes. The most important thing with controlled sparring, you get used to being hit at. Everyones main goal is to move to intermediate so you can spar aggressively. They just dont move people up after month(Unless you are good) It took me 2 months to move to intermediate. I tell you what, before I was moved up, I was hitting bags and mitts. Then when it actually went live, I was not used to being hit at. I couldnt keep my eye on my partners eyes. I had bad habits looking at my partners feet. I think controlled sparring works best!
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If a 6'4 235 pound guy is kicking a woman in the face and breaking her nose... there is very little "control" in his actions.
Just saying you're doing controlled sparring doesn't work for most beginners, because most guys who are just starting out don't understand control. I remember seeing it in track and I know it's the same as MMA. Our coach would say, "okay, for our warmup we're doing six 100 meter runs, the first two will be at 50%, the second two will be at 80% then the final two will be all out sprints."
You'd watch guys run the 50% and they would run them in about 16 seconds... then they'd go 80% and it'd be around 14 seconds... then 100% and it would be 12-13 seconds. That's not 50% for those first two runs if you're doing them in 16 seconds... the point was just to loosen up muscles for an all out sprint and to understand control, but almost every freshman on our team was more worried about looking "good" and setting the pace then they were about actually doing the workout properly and following instructions.
Most novices understand the difference between 75 and 100 percent. Not a lot of them understand the difference between 50 and 75 percent though.That's what a good coach needs to teach and hammer into people.
I saw the same thing all the time from beginners in kickboxing. An instructor would hold pads and say, "okay, hit the pad at 60%" and they would hit at around 80%. Then he'd say, "okay, now 80%", then you'd see them hitting at about 85%. Finally he's ask for an all out strike and they'd be wild and inaccurate.
That's why you start out hitting pads so you understand what those differences are... as soon as someone demonstrates that they can go at a designated pace with controled motions and follow directions, then you put them up against live opponents.
If someone doesn't want to go through a class of two of hitting pads then watching others spar so they realize what the hell to do, they're in the wrong sport in my opinion.
Never said the guy that was 6"4 235 lbs was the person who hit the woman in the face. It was someone whom earned his way to the intermediate class and could have been a great boxer if he lost weight. He went balls out with everyone. He was constantly giving people black eyes. He went 20% harder than anyone in that class. He even knocked me on my *** once :lol: It was the first time I sparred with him and didnt realize he was going balls out. I didnt mind it because I like to be pushed, but women on the other hand.
I dont know what to think of you point of view. I wouldnt second guess a K-1 4 time HW Muay Thai Champion/kickboxing champion is running his gym this way. I would tend to think he knows what he is doing. You develop your skill set quicker. I will be sure to ask him when he is back from Dublin Ireland in a week and a half.
dombrow3 said:
I dont know what to think of you point of view. I wouldnt second guess a K-1 4 time HW Muay Thai Champion/kickboxing champion is running his gym this way. I would tend to think he knows what he is doing. You develop your skill set quicker. I will be sure to ask him when he is back from Dublin Ireland in a week and a half.
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Dude, I'm not saying your instructor isn't qualified or that he's doing things incorrectly. Also not saying that you need to run up to your instructor and tell him some guy from an internet message board has a differing opinion on how to run his gym.
I'm just saying that back when I trained, sparring was a privledge you had to earn by demonstrating you knew, understood and could demonstrate the fundamentals... it wasn't something that everyone who walked in off the street was instructed to do during their first or second class.
It's just a differing opinion, it doesn't mean I'm right or even that I think you or your instructor is wrong
I just saw way too many hotshot kids walk into and out of our gym when they found out they weren't going to be able to clock people in the face on their first day (which showed they were enrolling for the wrong reasons, they didn't want to learn how to be fighters... they wanted to legally hit people under the guise of competition). We didn't have a lot of the "accidents" being described above and I think that was a big reason for it.
Then again our gym was primarly comprised of younger fighters, so we weren't being pushed to develop quickly. Our oldest guys were in their early 20's and they had all started at that gym in their teens. Our instructor also didn't teach professional fighters... everyone there was an amateur. When you were ready to become a professional he passed you along to a gym that could help patch up whatever weaknesses you had that was comprised of more experienced professional fighters.
osubuckeye4 said:
dombrow3 said:
I dont know what to think of you point of view. I wouldnt second guess a K-1 4 time HW Muay Thai Champion/kickboxing champion is running his gym this way. I would tend to think he knows what he is doing. You develop your skill set quicker. I will be sure to ask him when he is back from Dublin Ireland in a week and a half.
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Dude, I'm not saying your instructor isn't qualified or that he's doing things incorrectly. Also not saying that you need to run up to your instructor and tell him some guy from an internet message board has a differing opinion on how to run his gym.
I'm just saying that back when I trained, sparring was a privledge you had to earn by demonstrating you knew, understood and could demonstrate the fundamentals... it wasn't something that everyone who walked in off the street was instructed to do during their first or second class.
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I would hardly call it sparring though. If you saw it, you would know its not. It is very controlled. You are learning how to slip punches, parry a jab, check a leg kick, Defend against a high kick. You are told the move is coming. You work the the technique. The only difference and why it is called controled sparring is because of if you do not block or check the kick, you will be hit with it.(40 to 50% energy)
The accident also happened in intermediate sparring Like I indicated. It wasnt some noob on his 4th day sparring with us. He was at the gym for years and has been warned to take it down a notch!
dombrow3 said:
osubuckeye4 said:
dombrow3 said:
I dont know what to think of you point of view. I wouldnt second guess a K-1 4 time HW Muay Thai Champion/kickboxing champion is running his gym this way. I would tend to think he knows what he is doing. You develop your skill set quicker. I will be sure to ask him when he is back from Dublin Ireland in a week and a half.
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Dude, I'm not saying your instructor isn't qualified or that he's doing things incorrectly. Also not saying that you need to run up to your instructor and tell him some guy from an internet message board has a differing opinion on how to run his gym.
I'm just saying that back when I trained, sparring was a privledge you had to earn by demonstrating you knew, understood and could demonstrate the fundamentals... it wasn't something that everyone who walked in off the street was instructed to do during their first or second class.
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I would hardly call it sparring though. If you saw it, you would know its not. It is very controlled.
You are learning how to slip punches, parry a jab, check a leg kick, Defend against a high kick. You are told the move is coming. You work the the technique. The only difference and why it is called controled sparring is because of if you do not block or check the kick, you will be hit with it.(40 to 50% energy)
The accident also happened in intermediate sparring Like I indicated. It wasnt some noob on his 4th day sparring with us. He was at the gym for years and has been warned to take it down a notch!
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Isnt that just called drilling? We do the same thing, you know what moves are coming, you learn to slip punches, parry or catch a jab, check kicks, and if you dont, you eat a punch or a kick to the face/stomache/leg. But that is totally different from the sparring that is done at our gym. Which we dont do until we have been in the class for about a month. After we have hit pads and bags, and have drilled (or "controlled spar") enough that our instructor feels comfortable with us sparring.
pretendingtowork said:
dombrow3 said:
Hitting your partner is considered sparring isnt it?
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depending on what state you are in, it could be considered spousal abuse.
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Thats a good one. Will use that one! Oh its called Controled sparring. Defensive drilling is also controled sparring!
dombrow3 said:
pretendingtowork said:
dombrow3 said:
Hitting your partner is considered sparring isnt it?
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depending on what state you are in, it could be considered spousal abuse.
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Thats a good one. Will use that one! Oh its called Controled sparring. Defensive drilling is also controled sparring!
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Ok, so you call it one thing and our gym calls it another. Glad we cleared that up.
RawckOn said:
dombrow3 said:
I would hardly call it sparring though. If you saw it, you would know its not. It is very controlled.
You are learning how to slip punches, parry a jab, check a leg kick, Defend against a high kick. You are told the move is coming. You work the the technique. The only difference and why it is called controled sparring is because of if you do not block or check the kick, you will be hit with it.(40 to 50% energy)
The accident also happened in intermediate sparring Like I indicated. It wasnt some noob on his 4th day sparring with us. He was at the gym for years and has been warned to take it down a notch!
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Isnt that just called drilling? We do the same thing, you know what moves are coming, you learn to slip punches, parry or catch a jab, check kicks, and if you dont, you eat a punch or a kick to the face/stomache/leg. But that is totally different from the sparring that is done at our gym. Which we dont do until we have been in the class for about a month. After we have hit pads and bags, and have drilled (or "controlled spar") enough that our instructor feels comfortable with us sparring.
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Ah, I was under the impression that when you said sparring you meant taking all the skills learned and just tee'ing off against each other at a predetermined pace set by the instructor (which is where people not understanding the difference between 40, 60 and 80 percent comes into play).
At our gym that was considering sparring... drilling and sparring were completely different.
Sorry, I just envisioned like 30 white belts with 3 instructors surveying the action... which could turn into a potentially dangerous situation if you have a couple groups of goof off's.
Our classes also did drilling in the beginner/intermediate stages... where we'd learn a technique, or a small group of similar techniques then we'd fire them off at a controlled speed against a partner who knew what was coming, who was practicing the defense of the technique. The better you started to demonstrate control with pads and dummies, the closer to full speed you were allowed to go in drills and sparring.
I think we just got things confused in the terminology we were using, I know it varies from gym to gym and sport to sport.
Let me just say though... Even if you guys were doing sparring (my definition of it I listed above) with beginners on their first day, I'm not gonna sit behind a computer and blast you, your instructor or your school without actually witnessing it.
Hell, I remember my first sparring session my coach had me going up against one of our top guys a couple months into my training (which wasn't unheard of, but I remember people who had been there longer then me being pissed because they hadn't earned the right to spar yet)... it was done in an appropriate fashion though. Our coach was standing there watching it all (basically in the same position as a ref would stand in) and if I started to break the pace that we were supposed to be fighting at, he would caution me or step in and break things up and get order restored.
I wish we did what you do at your gym buckeye. The only place in decent driving distance from me is a Kenpo place and everyone is allowed to spar when they reach orange belt (9-12 months of training). Sparring was overlooked intermittently by the instructor so issues of control were abundantly present. When I began sparring I sparred with a blackbelt who happened to be very good, he boxed and wrestled outside of karate class too. He always got the better of me for a while when we sparred but I wasn't too far behind; my technique was sloppy and I was not in the type of shape he was in from his wrestling. As we sparred throughout the weeks I noticed that he did exercise good control because he always seemed to fight at the same pace I fought. If I stepped it up (consciously or not), he would also increase his intensity to a similar level. We ended up having great slugfests for his remaining time at the school because I lacked a lot of control and ended up throwing pretty hard. Another student I sparred was two belt ranks above me (green belt) and he did not exercise as much control for the first 6-9 months. He only threw his side kicks at 100%, no fail. He ended up knocking the wind out of another blackbelt who is a skinny lanky guy (however the blackbelt does have great control during sparring). When I sparred him on my first day sparring, he really tried to prove that he knew what he was doing and threw pretty hard at me. Anyway, this greenbelt, now a blackbelt, has shown a bit more control as of the last time I sparred him, which was 6 months ago. So next time around we'll see what happens.
As far as myself, I feel that I exercise good control and can now identfiy the difference between 40, 60, and 80 % energy. I better know how to control that s--- after 3 years :|
So I am roughly 3 weeks into my Judo training. Last Saturday after practice my head instructor pulled me into his office. He is a 6th degree black belt and has been doing judo since the 50's. He told me that I am showing a lot of promise for only 3 weeks of training. HE said my technique is constantly improving and I am the best white belt he has had in 10 or 15 years. It was cool made me feel good about my self.