NRA Want Armed Guards In Schools

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Spud
Date: December 21, 2012 at 01:07 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

The NRA today said that they want armed guards in schools and that "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".
I'm from the UK, so I'm not sure what the American response to this is, so what are the opinions here on guns in schools?
The general opinion from the UK is that the NRA are crazy, and the thought of having armed guards in schools is ridiculous.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: coreymb
Date: December 21, 2012 at 01:36 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

My opinion on this may surprise some from the other thread, but this is something that I would probably support. Obviously, I need to think about it a little bit more though. When I was growing up, my school district had 1 police officer per school that was unarmed, but basically worked as a liason. They carried mace, handguns and had a cop car on property. Probably would have been armed if State Law allowed it as well. Our school had next to no issues when it came to anything(even smaller things like fights) and most of it was probably because of having the officer on hand at all times.
It's something to really think about though, so I won't vote on the poll. Haven't put enough thought into it.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Spud
Date: December 21, 2012 at 01:50 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

There are a big couple problems I have with this.
Firstly, putting weapons in schools does nothing to stop mentally unstable people getting guns. If someone really wanted to kill a lot of kids in a school, they could wait until the end of the day, or the start of the day.
Secondly, it would take multiple guards in a school to stop someone getting in with a weapon. If someone is going to go to a school and kill children, they're not going to walk in the front door if they know an armed guard is there. At every school I've been in, from being a pupil to currently a student-teacher, there have been multiple ways into every school, basic fire safety relies on this. Even with the much improved security in schools here (security in UK schools changed after the Dunblane massacre in 1996) someone determined to get into a school could do so without going in the front door.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: coreymb
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:04 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

You're not going to stop everything completely, but having someone that can respond to damn near any threat within seconds is a pretty nice thing to have if needed. Having a police officer present limited any sort of crime, fights, thefts(etc) almost completely at our district though, so that does have to be looked at as a major positive(especially when schools outside of our district struggled with issues and they had no liason presence). Granted he was unarmed, so questions of is an armed officer necessary are naturally going to come up. That's something I'm still thinking about myself.
I personally don't see the NRA getting enough backing on this though. Another issue is cost. Teachers having been getting let go all over the States due to budget cuts and whatnot.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Sapper
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:15 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

This could work for some schools, but over all this is not cost effective, nor does it really solve the problem. This is the problem when the gun debate starts. Both sides are usually so far off the mark it is hard to have a real conversation about it. I would be more in favor of having a person that works at the school, like an Administrator, not a teacher be trained on how to use a firearm, and have a CCW. There would only be a few people in the school that knew who this person was, and the person would not advertise they have a gun on them. In reality both sides are so far off the mark that when something does get passed it will do nothing to stop what happened last week.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Oldwardog
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:30 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Spud said:
There are a big couple problems I have with this.
Firstly, putting weapons in schools does nothing to stop mentally unstable people getting guns. If someone really wanted to kill a lot of kids in a school, they could wait until the end of the day, or the start of the day.
Secondly, it would take multiple guards in a school to stop someone getting in with a weapon. If someone is going to go to a school and kill children, they're not going to walk in the front door if they know an armed guard is there. At every school I've been in, from being a pupil to currently a student-teacher, there have been multiple ways into every school, basic fire safety relies on this. Even with the much improved security in schools here (security in UK schools changed after the Dunblane massacre in 1996) someone determined to get into a school could do so without going in the front door.
Click to expand...
Dunblane is a perfect example of how this happens, the same as the Newtown killings, the Dunblane shooter had been reprted to the police several times before and nothing had been done to him before he did the shooting, same with the last twop here and others before them. But more gun controls will not stop, WILL NOT STOP, someone intent on committing this kind of act, they will merely find another and very possibly more destructive way to commit the crime. Imagine had eiether of these bastards not had access to firearms and instead decided to use explosives, how many more lives would have been lost? A psycho, and especially a hyper intelligent one like the Colorado and Newtown killers were can easily make an explosive, gas or other method of mass life taking. Once again the root of the problem is the people and yet I hear little from the banners on getting a hand on that issue and only a small bit more from the pro gun groups.
As far as the school issue goes we will see how "cost effective" it is here as our governor has taken tha action of starting a training program with CLEET to do just this in our schools, along with the use of retired police in schools as security. On the cost effective arguement, what is cost effective and how many lives lost makes something cost effective? A couple of firearms per school are not expensive and training is not either, sure as hell a lot cheaper than the lives lost.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:34 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

I think this is an overreaction and voted no.
That being said, I'm not totally opposed to the general principle of the idea. I'm only opposed to the "one solution fits all problems, regardless of if they exist or not" nature.
If a school district has a gang/gun problem and wants to include a security guard or security team in their budget? I have absolutely no problem with that.
I also have no problem with schools working with local police to set up a non-routine schedule where armed officers stop by and run a patrol of the hallways of the school at least once a day, as it would act as a deturrent. If you really wanted to increase effectiveness... go ahead and make it an undercover cop in an unmarked car. Again, no problem with that.
Putting an armed and paid security guard in EVERY school is a gigantic overreaction. While it's 98,000 new jobs... it's also jobs that have to be paid out of school funds, which are paid by private citizens through tax revenues.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Spud
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:34 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

At least with gun control, it's a lot more difficult to find a way to kill like that. After Dunblane, gun laws in the UK were tightened & we've not had a school shooting since. We've had very few mass shootings here since, and out police don't even have guns on them in most places (something I'm actually against, I believe police should carry handguns).

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:39 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Oh, and for the record... Columbine had at least one armed guard (some stories I've seen say they had 2), how did that work out for them?

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Oldwardog
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:46 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

osubuckeye4 said:
Oh, and for the record... Columbine had at least one armed guard (some stories I've seen say they had 2), how did that work out for them?
Click to expand...
A sherrifs deputy at that who was eating lunch while the killings went on and it was only one. Like I have said time and again it's the people we need to get under control instead of sweeping it under the rug. For those who have not listened to it check out Rogans last podacst he bring up the issue of the drugs we put kids on that I brought up in the original thread, seems there is a definite connection from what Joe found in his research.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:49 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Bubbaslam said:
A sherrifs deputy at that who was eating lunch while the killings went on and it was only one.
Click to expand...
Who did exchange fire with one of the two suspects, but couldn't prevent them from shooting up the rest of the school while he sat in a radio room with the cops.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Oldwardog
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:56 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Spud said:
At least with gun control, it's a lot more difficult to find a way to kill like that. After Dunblane, gun laws in the UK were tightened & we've not had a school shooting since.
We've had very few mass shootings here since
, and out police don't even have guns on them in most places (something I'm actually against, I believe police should carry handguns).
Click to expand...
But they have still happened even with the near complete ban on handguns in the UK. Cumbria was only two years ago and only the third in the history of the UK if memory serves me correct. be it Norway, Finland, Azerbaijan or the US a person intent on killing will find a way to do so.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Oldwardog
Date: December 21, 2012 at 02:57 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

osubuckeye4 said:
Who did exchange fire with one of the two suspects, but couldn't prevent them from shooting up the rest of the school while he sat in a radio room with the cops.
Click to expand...
Dereliction of duty plain and simple, he was there to protect the school, not go and call on the radio while the shooting continued.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: December 21, 2012 at 03:04 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Bubbaslam said:
Dereliction of duty plain and simple, he was there to protect the school, not go and call on the radio while the shooting continued.
Click to expand...
Yes, but who is to say that another armed guard wouldn't do the same thing (if every school in America hired a guard for every public school)?
It's one thing to get someone to say they would take a bullet for you in exchange for $38,000 a year. It's a completely different thing to send a shooter your way and test the theory out.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: December 21, 2012 at 03:17 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/DEPUTIES_TEXT.htm
The sherrif deputy (armed guard) at Columbine's report.
Honestly... any time sometime shoots up a school, it's going to be pandamonium inside the school just like was described in the report in the article above.
Put a "good guy" with a gun in a situation like that and he still has very little chance of winning.
The sad reality is, the "bad guys" don't give a s--- who they hit in the crossfire... the "good guy" is aiming only for the gunmen.
Again, I'm totally fine with schools that have a realistic need for an armed guard (severe gang problems, violence issues between students/faculty, a number of gun incidents) hiring one. I just don't think that EVERY school would benefit.
In these crazy *** situations like Columbine, Virginia Tech, NIU and Conn. armed people on the scene wouldn't have really helped a whole lot. (plus, NIU and Virginia Tech both have campus police departments with armed officers... didn't help in either of those cases either)

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Oldwardog
Date: December 21, 2012 at 03:33 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

OSU I can agree with everything, having been in combat and shot at it truly does change things no matter who you are, trust me the first time you hear a bullet whiz by your f---in head you find out what you are made of. We do not know how anyone will react to such a situation regardless of training outside a true combat vet, even trained LEO can fail on amassive scale, but IF it does work and the good guy takes out the bad guy, just once, then the plan has worked and has saved lives from being lost. If it does not work then the scenario does not change whether there is a gun or not, but to not try is worse than not even trying.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: December 21, 2012 at 03:41 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Bubbaslam said:
OSU I can agree with everything, having been in combat and shot at it truly does change things no matter who you are, trust me the first time you hear a bullet whiz by your making lub head you find out what you are made of. We do not know how anyone will react to such a situation regardless of training outside a true combat vet, even trained LEO can fail on amassive scale, but IF it does work and the good guy takes out the bad guy, just once, then the plan has worked and has saved lives from being lost. If it does not work then the scenario does not change whether there is a gun or not, but to not try is worse than not even trying.
Click to expand...
It just sounds way to similar to the logic for putting screeners and armed guards and metal detectors and drug sniffing dogs in every airport.
"If it prevents even ONE death, it is a success" (even though it costs trillions of dollars that our country really can't afford to spend)
Before you say I'm exaggerating... 98,000 public schools. Figure it is $50,000 per year per officer.
You are looking at $4,900,000,000 per year.
That doesn't even take into considering the cost of the firearms, the cost of the training, and the fact that some schools are probably so big that you would need multiple guards on premesis.
It's just an awful lot to spend when you consider the fact that there are other less dramatic solutions (like local law enforcement and schools working together to have non-routine sweeps to act as a deturrent)

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Oldwardog
Date: December 21, 2012 at 03:52 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Like I said I can agree, but as we have seen time and again it is seldom the schhols in the areas you mention where we see these things happen, Newtown was far from a school with gang and drug issues.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: osubuckeye4
Date: December 21, 2012 at 03:59 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Bubbaslam said:
Like I said I can agree, but as we have seen time and again it is seldom the schhols in the areas you mention where we see these things happen, Newtown was far from a school with gang and drug issues.
Click to expand...
Time and time again?
The sample size for these massacres (at high or elementary level schools) is so incredibly low... you have Columbine, Sandy Hook and Red Lake (which was on an Indian reservation) since 1990.
EDIT: There was also the Amish school massacre in 2006, so a sample size of 4.
I hate to keep comparing it to 9/11 and the way the government reacted in beefing up the TSA... but it's very similar.
Of course it would be best if the sample size were 0... but 4 incidents over a period of 14 years (and really, there had been none since '89 prior to Columbine in '99) is incredibly low.

 

[Nastycrow]

Originally posted by: Sapper
Date: December 21, 2012 at 04:37 PM
Source: https://forum.mmajunkie.com/threads/nra-want-armed-guards-in-schools.50369/

Bubbaslam said:
OSU I can agree with everything,
having been in combat and shot at it truly does change things no matter who you are, trust me the first time you hear a bullet whiz by your making lub head you find out what you are made of.
We do not know how anyone will react to such a situation regardless of training outside a true combat vet, even trained LEO can fail on amassive scale, but IF it does work and the good guy takes out the bad guy, just once, then the plan has worked and has saved lives from being lost. If it does not work then the scenario does not change whether there is a gun or not, but to not try is worse than not even trying.
Click to expand...
I stated this is the other thread as well. Training does help, but you never really know. This idea of a cop in every school is just to over the top, and IMO will not stop this sort of thing from happening again. And as OSU has said before school shooting don't happen all the time. America does need some kind of gun reform, but when it does happen it wont be what is needed. It will be the assault weapons ban all over again, and that law was a joke. Education is the key, not needless laws that don't change a thing.